47th (2nd London) Division

[squirrel]

Has anyone any idea where I can obtain a 47th Division badge? Repro would do.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Michael Johnson]

I don't think divisional insignia was produced as badges.

This is as good as anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_...on_insignia.png

[tocemma]

Squirrel,

As Mike has pointed out, the star badge was not worn on uniform. When the Division went to France in 1915, it was used as a convenient recognition symbol for MT vehicles. Apparently the star was chosen by the OC, 47th Div Supply Column as representing a simplified version of the ASC badge. The edging of the square was colour coded as follows: Blue for Divisional Troops, Yellow for 140th Brigade group, Green for 141st Infantry Brigade group, and red for the 142nd Brigade group.

In November 1915 Divisional Trains were ordered to mark their vehicles with the same sign as the 47th Supply Column. The sign was modified so it could be painted on the side of GS wagons, the colour of the border still indicating the Brigade Company of the Train to which the vehicle belonged.

During the winter of 1916 the marks or signs peculiar to Divisional Trains were painted by order of GHQ on all vehicles of the Division. Variations for Brigades were not allowed so the blue border previously used by only the Divisional Troops was extended to the whole Division.

The Infantry signs were as follows. Worn by all ranks on both arms, approx 4" from the shoulder seam (although this seems to have varied somewhat)

140 Brigade Yellow Club, 6th London. Yellow Spade, 7th London. Yellow Diamond, 8th London. Yellow Heart, 15th London.

141 Brigade Green Club, 17th London. Green Spade, 18th London. Green Diamond, 19th London. Green Heart, 20th London.

142 Brigade Red Club, 21st London. Red Spade, 22nd London. Red Diamond, 23rd London. Red Heart, 24th London.

In addition Companies wore a coloured bar about 1 1/2" long and 1/4" deep beneath the geometric shapes. these were blue, yellow, green, and red for A,B,C and D Companies respectively.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Tocemma

[Chief_Chum]

The 47th London sign was worn by a TA unit in WW2 or the '50s too. This is one of their patches- about 3.5 inches square. Not sure if it was worn as a square or a diamond.

I was given three of them years ago. Squirrel - if you want one send me a PM with your address and I will post it to you.

Cheers,

Taff

[squirrel]

Thanks for the info Mike and Tocemma - that's cleared a couple of other queries up as well.

Taff - that's very generous of you - thank you - pm sent.

[Chief_Chum]

My pleasure Tony.

The badge will be on its way this morning.

With best wishes,

Taff

[squirrel]

Thanks again Taff.

[john gregory]

Squirrel,

As Mike has pointed out, the star badge was not worn on uniform. When the Division went to France in 1915, it was used as a convenient recognition symbol for MT vehicles. Apparently the star was chosen by the OC, 47th Div Supply Column as representing a simplified version of the ASC badge. The edging of the square was colour coded as follows: Blue for Divisional Troops, Yellow for 140th Brigade group, Green for 141st Infantry Brigade group, and red for the 142nd Brigade group.

In November 1915 Divisional Trains were ordered to mark their vehicles with the same sign as the 47th Supply Column. The sign was modified so it could be painted on the side of GS wagons, the colour of the border still indicating the Brigade Company of the Train to which the vehicle belonged.

During the winter of 1916 the marks or signs peculiar to Divisional Trains were painted by order of GHQ on all vehicles of the Division. Variations for Brigades were not allowed so the blue border previously used by only the Divisional Troops was extended to the whole Division.

The Infantry signs were as follows. Worn by all ranks on both arms, approx 4" from the shoulder seam (although this seems to have varied somewhat)

140 Brigade Yellow Club, 6th London. Yellow Spade, 7th London. Yellow Diamond, 8th London. Yellow Heart, 15th London.

141 Brigade Green Club, 17th London. Green Spade, 18th London. Green Diamond, 19th London. Green Heart, 20th London.

142 Brigade Red Club, 21st London. Red Spade, 22nd London. Red Diamond, 23rd London. Red Heart, 24th London.

In addition Companies wore a coloured bar about 1 1/2" long and 1/4" deep beneath the geometric shapes. these were blue, yellow, green, and red for A,B,C and D Companies respectively.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Tocemma

Sorry Paul, I think that you are wrong with your London flashes, here are the correct one's. As you know my friend Mick has a T / 24 London tunic with the red spade flashes on.

[john gregory]

London flashes,,

140 Brigade, 6th London Yellow Heart, 7th London Yellow Diamond, 8th London Yellow Club, 15th London Yellow Spade.

141 Brigade, 17th London Green Heart, 18th London Green Diamond, 19th London Green Club, 20th London Green Spade.

142 Brigade, 21st London Red Heart, 22nd Red Diamond, 23rd London Red Club, 24th London Red Spade.

JG

[squirrel]

Thank you John.

[tocemma]

Hello Squirrel,

Sorry for sending you up the wrong tree (as it were) I broke my own rule and used an unverified source (a page from the history of Bermondsey and Southwark volunteers) mainly because of the info on the origins of the sign which seems to be accurate from my other notes. I think the info was originally given to me by Mike Chappel as a photocopy. I also have the MHS notes that John posted and should have cross referenced them before posting. Mea Culpa!

For an alternative version see below! I have heard of this Div sign being referred to as the 'Dutch Tile', but only in a WW2 context. Not at all unusual, unfortunately, to have multiple 'sources' claiming the origin of Div signs. Seems the ASC Officer has been promoted to GOC.

Ooops....Hope its not too confusing.

Tocemma

[squirrel]

Thanks Tocemma - appreciated.