When did this man join up?

[martinclift]

Hi

I am trying to discover when this man joined the Rifle Brigade and where he would have signed up.

He is recorded on the 1911 Census as a Civil Servent Rifle Brigade, these would have been his words as this was the first census where individual hoseholds completed the form themselves. His name is Wiiliam George Broughton and his MIC records numbers - 3366, Rifle Brigade 615222, Labour Corps.

This then leads to the second question, when did he move over to the Labour Corps. I can only guess it was because he was wounded. His MIC does indicate that he recieved a 'Clasp', was this awarded to those who were wounded?

Martin

[Patrick ODwyer]

What age was he in the census? Another reason for joining the Labour Corps was that some men were pushing on a bit in years and not as fit as they were; reservists not least among them.

[ralphjd]

Martin. Re the Clasp & R (Roses) this referes to the awards given to men who actually served under fire or were present on duty within range of the enemies mobile artillery in France and Belgium between 5-8-1914 and midnight 22/23-11-1914, the clasp had the above dates inscribed and two small metal roses were awarded, one to be worn on 1914 Star Ribbon to denote entitlement to the clasp. Ralph.

[martinclift]

Patrick, thanks for replying

He was born in 1898, showing as 21 in 1911 and that would make him 30 in 1919, so do you think his age was really an issue?

Ralph, thanks for replying.

Great information there, I now know what the clasp is all about.

What I find a little confusing is that he died in 1961 and up until his death he was quite fit so I'm not convinced that age was the reason for him to go into the Labour Corps.

That said, there were no stories of him being wounded either.

Martin

[Ivor Lee]

Martin

His Labour Corps number would sugest he was transferred during the summer of 1918 (June - August).

From his number I suspect he was one of the men transferred to the Labour Corps to act as guards a PoW Camp but it is not possible to say which of th PoW Companies he was with.

Ivor

[martinclift]

Thanks Ivor

The plot thickens and I am getting closer to what I want to know.

Many thanks for that.

Martin

[Patrick ODwyer]

Patrick, thanks for replying

He was born in 1898, showing as 21 in 1911 and that would make him 30 in 1919, so do you think his age was really an issue?

Probably not age-related fitness in this case

[MBrockway]

Martin,

Rifle Brigade Service Number 3366 [Edit: and his Date of Birth of 1898, plus the fact he was in the RB in 1911, ...] would indicate a Regular enlisting in the first half of January 1909.

I'll see what else I can find out, but I'm a bit busy with various holiday duties!

Cheers,

Mark

[Edit: above phrase added in case any other Pals makes inferences that other RB regulars with Service Numbers near to 3366 also enlisted in 1909 - see the following Notes.

-- oo0oo --

Some additional Notes about Service Numbers for KRRC and RB Regulars

In fact the RB Service Number range had been recycled three times in the period before Xmas 1914 so SNs in this range could have enlisted in any of 1894, 1909 or 1914 (Sep).

RB & KRRC both had high re-enlistment rates, so the second and third "recycling" was only able to reissue the limited SNs that had already been freed up by those 1898 enlistees who'd left the regiment.

Another anomaly to beware of is that SNs were not infrequently duplicated across the four regular battalions!

A couple of SWB roll examples will probably make this clearer:

A. Roll M.696

B. Roll M.955

[columns are SN, Rank, Name, Unit Discharged From, SWB Number, Enlistment Date]

A. shows 3365 A/RSM Brown, enlisted in 1894 and discharged on 06 Sep 1917 with Myalia (sic - probably for myalgia). B. shows 3365 Rfn Tidbury enlisted 27 Sep 1909 and discharged 26 Apr 1918 (no reason given). Rfn Tidbury was discharged from 6/RB, but this was a Reserve Btn to which he would have been posted after wounds/sickness while it was assessed if he would recover back to full fighting effectiveness, which in this case he did not.

Thus until Sep 1917 there were at least two RB regulars with SN 3365 - one old stalwart from 1894, and one from 1909. It's highly likely there would also be a third 3365 enlisted in Sep 1914, since elsewhere on the SWB Rolls there's a 3360 enlisted on 03 Sep 1914 and sure enough there's an MIC to a 3365 Rfn Cutmore, Henry J!

All this has no impact on our 1909 Enlistment for 3366 Broughton because he was not born in 1894 and was already in the regiment long before 1914, so he can only belong to the 1909 cycle.

I'm just clarifying in case Pals researching other RB regulars draw unsafe conclusions from my original version of this Post! Nothing is simple with rifles regiments!

Many thanks due to Andy for prompting me to add these notes and also providing these excellent worked examples]

Cheers,

Mark

[martinclift]

You may be right there Patrick, thanks for the input.

Martin

[martinclift]

Many thanks for this Mark.

This information is really putting together some family history stuff and helping me understand many things.

I would be very grateful if you could see if you can find anything else, when you have time of course.

Thanks

Martin

[MBrockway]

Martin,

Some clarification Qs for you ...

Can you confirm there is no alphabetic prefix to the 3366 Service Number?

Civil Servant and Rifle Brigade is an odd combination to describe one's occupation. Could you post a scan of the 1911 census entry?

Is your man based in the Inner London area? If so, then the 5th Londons (London Rifle Brigade) often appears in records as Rifle Brigade. Might be worth checking that? The LRB were a TF unit though, so the census entry still sits strangely.

Another thought that occurs from pondering that census entry is Civil Service Rifles (15th Londons). Again though the CSRs were a TF unit, so the Occupation still seems a bit strange. There would have been Regulars attached to the CSRs Headquarters, usually senior NCOs (ditto for the LRB). However the CSRs Regulars generally (but not exclusively) came from the KRRC rather than the RB.

Where is his address in the 1911 census? The RHQ for the LRB were at Bunhill Row in EC1 and the CSRs were at Somerset House in WC2. The RHQ Staff may have been billeted elsewhere of course.

HOWEVER ... he would not have been awarded the Clasp to the 1914 Star with either the LRBs or CSRs, so even if he was attached to either, he must have been recalled to the RB in order to become an Old Contemptible with them as per his MIC.

[Edit: Wrong! Talking with Andy , the LRB arrived in the Ploegsteert area on 20 Nov 1914 and began trench training in half companies attached to the regular battalions of 11 Brigade. There were definitely LRB men attached to 1/RB who came under fire before 23 Nov and were eligible for the Clasp to the 1914 Star. This is confirmed in A Short History of the LRB]

Let us know what you think on these Qs.

Cheers,

Mark

[martinclift]

Hi Mark

1) My error here, I missed the fact that his MIC states 3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade

2) William Broughton was born and lived in Gloucester right up to the late 1950s

3) I can see no alphabetic prefix

4) MIC posted

5) Part of 1911 Census posted

6) Two images. In the single image he looks much younger than in the group image. Also in the group image he is wearing some sort of decoration above his tunic pocket and is that a mark or some sort of identification on his sleeve cuff?

[martinclift]

This is part of the 1911 Census for Gloucester

I though I would let you see these two images of him as it may help in some way

[Stebie9173]

The group picture is 1918 or later (overseas stripes as visible on the right sleeve of the man seated on the left as we look were not issued for wear until the very beginning of 1918). Most of the other men appear to be artillery men, with one Fusilier (top left) and one Middlesex Regiment (probably) man.

Most of the others seem to be Warrant Officers (Battery Sergeant Majors in the case of the artillery). The warrant officer in the middle has an MC ribbon and two wound stripes.

William has a wound stripe on the left sleeve and what is very likely to be his 1914 Star ribbon on his chest. His overseas stripes are obscured by the next man's left arm. His cap badge is certainly consistent with the rifle brigade. All riflemen wore blackened buttons which he also wears.

In the single picture he is wearing an ID bracelet on his left wrist. I suspect that this would not have been worn until the war actually started.

Steve.

[martinclift]

Thanks for that Steve.

I have found another photograph of a smaller group, taken at the same time as there are many of the same faces.

William does indeed have three chevrons on his right sleeve, wound stripe (not damage to image) on his left and the ribbon on his chest appears to have three colours (changes in monochrome grey).

Previously in this topic I mentioned that William went into the Labour Corps which would have been after these images but, still about 1918. As he is pictured with other regiments I would think that it could be some sort of training, any ideas?

Martin

[MBrockway]

Martin,

Talking with Andy , we can add that 3/RB were in barracks in Cork in 1911, so William must have been home on leave in Gloucester.

We could not think of any other plausible RB (or KRRC) reason for William to be in Gloucester.

Cheers,

Mark

I have found another photograph of a smaller group, taken at the same time as there are many of the same faces.

Martin

We'd still love to see it!

Mark

[MBrockway]

As he is pictured with other regiments I would think that it could be some sort of training, any ideas?

Martin

I agree.

17 Brigade course of some sort?

Cheers,

Mark

[Stebie9173]

The three overseas chevrons is interesting...

The issuing of overseas stripes was done on the basis of:

- Entitlement to first chevron upon landing. If landed in 1914 this chevron was red, otherwise it was blue. In William's case 12-9-1914 - entitled to one red chevron.

- Entitlement to second chevron occured after 365 more days of overseas service (home leave of up to a month counted as overseas, but not in the case of wounds or sickness). Assuming William's service was unbroken his second chevron (1st blue) was due on 12-9-1915.

- Entitlement to third chevron (2nd blue) on 12-9-1916.

- Entitlement to fourth chevron (3rd blue) on 12-9-1917.

Whilst entitlement to overseas chevrons could begin as early as 1914 (retrospectively) the issuing of chevrons was only done from very early in 1918, hence by this point unbroken service overseas should have netted William four chevrons. The lack of the fourth chevron points to an extended period of non-qualifying (i.e. UK) service.

Assuming the picture was taken at the earliest point for chevrons to be issued i.e. January 1918. He has a shortfall of at least four months, and in theory up to sixteen months. Knowing he was wounded, means we can attribute some or all of this to his wounds, which if serious enough to cause evacuation would usually mean a minimum of 3 to 6 months recovery in the UK, and often more.

Anyway, this suggests that he received wounds serious enough to cause evacuation home to the UK.

Incidentally, despite his Labour Corps service his medals seem to have been issued from the Rifle Brigade Rolls... Does anyone have that Roll?

Possibly a Divisional Training School, as I think that is a Middlesex Regiment badge (none in 17th Brigade, but 13th Middlesex in 73rd Brigade)

Steve.

[martinclift]

Many thanks for all your help on this one.

Martin

(I have enlarged the image so that the ribbon can be seen more easily)

[martinclift]

Wow!

Thanks Steve.

This seems to be bottoming out quite well.

As there is no service record for William, does anyone a regimental diary on the off chance he may be recorded as wounded at some stage?

Martin

[Stebie9173]

Ignore my musings above - that looks like three blue chevrons and one red chevron.... which should be his entitlement by early 1918 (by the time he was entitled to his fifth chevron he would have been in the Labour Corps)

Entitlement:

Red #1 - 12-9-1914

Blue #1 - 12-9-1915

Blue #2 - 12-9-1916

Blue #3 - 12-9-1917

Not entitled yet:

Blue #4 - 12-9-1918 (and Ivor Lee has established that he was a Labour corps man by then)

Chevrons in colour:

(Caveat: I believe some men were reluctant to give up their infantry cap badges for Labour Corps ones, but I can't definitively say that!)

The ribbon looks like the 1914 Star to me. I can't make out the Royal Fusiliers sergeants ribbon.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

The overseas chevrons illustrated above were issue as a group. When they were first issued the 1914 red chevron was often "tacked on". See this webpage link. The men on the second picture on the image are wearing the "tacked on" chevron which is not as obvious as the blue ones.

http://freespace.virgin.net/jack.clegg/val%20littlewood.htm

The also show the 1914 Star and how faded it looks on the photos of the time. This is very reminiscent of your photograph.

Steve.

[martinclift]

Steve

This just gets better and better!

Thanks

Martin

[martinclift]

I wish I had such an eye for detail as you guys!

Martin

[Stebie9173]

I note that in the "log bench" picture the Royal Fusilier has a wound stripe but not overseas chevrons. This might suggest a quite early 1918 picture when the overseas stripes were still being issued, and whilst the Rifle Brigade had them the Royal Fusiliers had not yet issued them?

The same applies to the Warrant Officer with the cane and "Sam Browne" cross belt in the larger groups - but doubly so!

Steve.