9th Battalion Royal Fusiliers insignia

[RobL]

Aside from the obvious RF shoulder titles and cap badge, what insignia, ie battle patches, divisional insignia etc, would have been worn by someone in the 9th Battalion Royal Fusiliers, 36 Brigade 12 Division? Specifically i'm looking for late 1917 during Cambrai, but if anyone knows when it changed (my only knowledge so far is of the 110th Leicester Brigade and that changed during the war) and what to etc at various other periods i'd be very grateful for that too.

Best regards, Rob

[Mike_H]

Rob

This is what info I have on 9th RF. They wore an embroidered s/title 9.R.F. on both sleeves, blue on grey silk, like a Cash's name tape. Picture of an uncut pair attached. These were worn from 1915 until February 1918. From March to May 1917, covering the Battle of Arras period they wore a red rectangle 1" x 3 1/2" on the back of the tunic below the collar. Steel helmets had a stylised grenade shape in white with 9 on the ball at the front and the 12th Div black Ace of Spades at the back.

Mike

[tocemma]

Rob,

To echo what Mike has said, the shrapnel helmet had the bomb and 9 at the front. I had a shell of one of these in my collection at one time. It was later photographed in the Radovic/Haselgrove book, Helmets of the First World War. I noticed it was sold (or one suspiciously like it) on ebayUS recently. I think I have a photo from when it was in my collection and the ebay listing. I hadn't compared, but I'm pretty sure it's the same one. No ace of spades on the back, but I have had, and seen, quite a few helmets from this Div and nearly all had a black ace of spades to the rear.

Tocemma

[RobL]

Afternoon gents - many, many thanks for that! First things first;

Mike, the tape you uploaded, is the grey silk the letters with the blue the stitching on top, with a khaki 'background' as with your image?

Also, I presume the grenade for the Brodie badge is the 'flaming grenade' of the RF badge?

I'm helping someone with research of someone killed at Cambrai with 9 RF and he was with them from 1915, previously i'd just presumed he'd have just worn RF shoulder titles and perhaps a coloured battle patch, very fascinating.

Thanks, Rob

[Mike_H]

Rob

The photo I attached is a scan of a very old polaroid and the colour rendering is not good - the 9.R.F is in blue silk on a mid grey silk tape - the khaki tone is just bad colour in the original. The grenade is the RF cap badge shape but very simplified without flame detail.

Mike

[tocemma]

Rob,

Image of the ex TM/Radovic collection sharpnel helmet. With apologies to Brana and Mike if they are out there, for nicking the image. This did not have an ace of spades on the back. Still looking for the ebay image which I have saved somewhere. If it is the same one (and it certainly appeared to be complete with pinged off bits of textured paint) then it went for much less than I sold it for originally. Bizarre, but that's collecting for you. I almost had a pop myself. If it is the same one, it was I think just a shell and minus its lining....unless the miltaria fairies have been at work. (and I mean that as in mythical/magical/religious type entities)

Regards

Tocemma

ps This posted in your stretcher bearer thread in error, now here!

[Mike_H]

Rob & Toc

Very interested to see this version of the helmet badge. Attached is a copy of the sketch that accompanied 9th RF's uniform questionnaire returned to the IWM in 1919-20. This is why I described the marking as 'stylised' but perhaps the person returning the questionnaire couldn't draw well enough to produce a version as shown in the photo!

Mike

[SteveE]

that accompanied 9th RF's uniform questionnaire returned to the IWM in 1919-20.

Mike

Could you expand on this statement please? Was this something that all RF battalions (maybe all regiments/battalions) did or were asked?

Regards

Steve

[RobL]

Thanks again for more information and photographs gents - Mike, I presume as it's a photograph you don't own the original? If anyone has measurements and/or photographs of them being worn, i'd be very appreciative, as ever!

Cheers, Rob

[Mike_H]

ROB,

I have checked my original notes & photocopies etc and must correct myself - the image is from a sketch that accompanies the 9th RF insignia in the IWM's collection of battalion signs that was assembled in late 1917 after request to units to provide examples of badges for the new Museum. I have never seen a photo of it in use. The original sketch is 2 1/4" high and 1 3/4" wide.

STEVE

Questionnaires - In 1919 the newly formed IWM sent out questionnaires to all the infantry battalions and cavalry regiments asking about uniforms and equipment worn during the war, it included among many others a section on badges other than the regulation cap badges & shoulder titles ie battalion recognition signs. The response was varied and not all units responded. Some battalions had been disbanded in which case there was no reply or a partial reponse from the Regimental Depot, others had been reduced to cadre and the remaining personnel were not fully aware of the details etc. etc. At this distance in time we can't be sure why some didn't reply, but the information that was received is very often not recorded anywhere else. The questionnaires are held by the IWM's Department of Printed books and have been photcopied and bound for use.

Yours

Mike

[SteveE]

Mike

Many thanks for the explanation. I'll have to enquire with the IWM whether a response was received covering other Royal Fusiliers battalions, the 25th in particular although having disbanded in 1918 I suspect the answer may be in the negative.

Thanks again.

Steve