Stretcher Bearer equipment

[Grovetown]

While we're at it, here's a nice pic of the brassard being worn by a Liverpool Scot. I like the broken T/10 title...

[tocemma]

This RF chap has GT's red edged badge by the looks of it. Not absolutely certain though. Note he also has one of the curious hybrid jackets sometimes seen. No rifle patches, but pleated pockets. The two darts under the collar are visible on the original print.

Pattern 14 waistbelt, so this badge was still being worn a good few months into the war at the very least. I have another clear picture of the drab version in use but can't locate it at the mo.

Tocemma

[wainfleet]

I think TE's sling is 1913. Here's my 1915 dated one (obtained when, as stated above, it was easy):

[wainfleet]

Here's most of my SB armband, which has never been anything but "beige" (for want of a better word):

[wainfleet]

My SB badge, and finally, I may have posted this before but here it is anyway:

[wainfleet]

Indeed. A very different market place now. I remember a chap with a stall at the top of the Portobello Road market with a tea chest full of 14 pattern helve holders, the Home Guard cache of rifle wire cutters that turned up, progressively rustier towards the bottom of the boxes. Not to mention the 1938 dated steel helmets I bought in quantity, in mint condition, with WW1 liners fitted. Yes, I didn't get that one either!

Those were the days....

Tocemma

They were the days indeed. Lawrence Corner surplus store had the 14 helve holders in quantity at £3.78 each; I bought half a dozen but didn't bother with the rest. Messtins and trench maps were very hard to sell at a fiver each. The wire cutters started out at a tenner, and I have no idea why people pay the current insane prices for them as that mark was barely used, whilst the widely-used handheld cutters are still very cheap. Maybe now is the time to start buying them! And the teachest of 43 and 44 dated para helmets in Brick Lane market.... Apologies for going off topic, but I couldn't resist. Ee, when I were a lad, this were all fields!

[Andrew Upton]

Note he also has one of the curious hybrid jackets sometimes seen. No rifle patches, but pleated pockets. The two darts under the collar are visible on the original print.

Could this not be an example of where an extra strip of khaki material has been added to the pockets of the Simplified jacket to create more of the appearance of the standard jacket? They look very flat to the surface, but I can't easily see if the pockets are the bigger ones or not.

[Muerrisch]

The said book was written in 1984, and a lot of knowledge has washed back and forth since then.

First, the bit I am certain of.

Red cross armband for RAMC only, gave protection under Geneva Convention. No arms to be carried except defence against fuzzy wuzzies etc. [broad generalisation]

Red cross badge worn both arms only RAMC, iincludes TF etc.

SB armlet no protection under Convention, wearer could bear arms.

SB badge TF only, clearly worn into Great war, several versions extant, but only one in the RACD ledger.

A bit busy at the moment but will look up my notes in near future ..... suspect on drab.

[Paul Reed]

Another shot of a couple of SBs which may be of interest?

Close up of armband:

[Chief_Chum]

Both my versions scanned together. The khaki one is just under two and a half inches across.

The first SB armband I posted belonged to an 11th Suffolk Bandsman. He had cut the buckle off for a belt after the war.

This is a complete one. Exactly the same colour although I guess it is probably unbleached cotton which was "white" as far as the manufacturers were concerned...

.

[Chief_Chum]

"Could this not be an example of where an extra strip of khaki material has been added to the pockets of the Simplified jacket to create more of the appearance of the standard jacket? They look very flat to the surface, but I can't easily see if the pockets are the bigger ones or not."

Hi Andrew,

Many film prop Pattern NS jackets have had the pleats added by just stitching the false ones straight onto the pocket, thereby sealing them shut. Having converted a few WW2 jackets with patch pockets into pleated ones, with opening pockets, I can say that it is not an easy job. The pockets would have to be taken off and stitched back on with false pleats if the pockets were still to be used. I can't imagine why anyone would have bothered at the time. Much more likely to be a manufacturer saving material I would have thought.

Taff

[Andrew Upton]

Many film prop Pattern NS jackets have had the pleats added by just stitching the false ones straight onto the pocket, thereby sealing them shut. Having converted a few WW2 jackets with patch pockets into pleated ones, with opening pockets, I can say that it is not an easy job. The pockets would have to be taken off and stitched back on with false pleats if the pockets were still to be used. I can't imagine why anyone would have bothered at the time. Much more likely to be a manufacturer saving material I would have thought.

I just recall seeing one as I described quite a few years ago - original Simplified Jacket, ex-UGI/UCI? marked if I recall correctly, just about mint original condition, with the exception that someone had carefully hand-stitched a pair of not-quite matching khaki rectangles onto the breast pockets. They looked like they'd been there forever. Must have been 9 or 10 years ago now I think of it

[Chief_Chum]

" ex-UGI/UCI? marked"

A film prop jacket converted like ours but using more valuable source material!

[corinne mills]

could this be the red cross arm badges?

http://ourpasthistory.com/Gallerya/main.ph...ageViewsIndex=1

[Muerrisch]

I THINK they are RN, not army.

[wainfleet]

could this be the red cross arm badges?

http://ourpasthistory.com/Gallerya/main.ph...ageViewsIndex=1

Not RN, these are definitely army and look to be WW1.

[Muerrisch]

I think you will need to back your assertion with evidence: in particular, why the black or blue/black background? All the kosher-looking ones in my collection have a drab background, pale yellow inside that, white inside that, then red cross.

I rather suspect Edwards and Langley were wrong in their "on black" listing.

Perhaps "on black" co-existed with "on drab", but I cannot beieve that "on drab" was other than for the SD jacket.

[wainfleet]

Dear Herr Grumpmeister

I can only back it with empirical evidence I'm afraid! Over the past 30ish years I've seen many of these turn with WW1 titles, medals, paybooks etc. They also occur with the drab backing but those are much rarer.

So I will qualify my original statement by saying that it's my belief, based on what I've observed over the years (and whilst I haven't noted down details, I have observed carefully), that the badges with the navy / black backing are army issue.

Best wishes,

W.

[Muerrisch]

I can live with that, because the ones on drab are army issue. I am now looking for a top-quality "in wear" photo or two, of course.

[wainfleet]

I was trying to remember where I'd recently seen the black-backed red cross on a WW1 SD jacket and it finally came to me - Trenchtrotter posted a photo of one on the Authentic Badges on Authentic SD thread, which I do believe was initiated by your good self!

I'm sure I've seen other actual tunics besides this one - though I haven't specifically made notes of them - and don't see any reason to question the authenticity of TT's RAMC SD. In fact when you think about it, there are overwhelmingly more of the black ones than the drab ones, which just wouldn't sit right with the respective proportions of Army and Navy medics. I'm not sure why drab and black ones seem to have been worn concurrently but personally I'm now satisfied that the black one is the typical Army version of this period.

W.

[Muerrisch]

even I have more black ones than drab in my spares box.

Shucks!

The RACD mentions are too vague to help much, and I don't know of a sealed pattern.

[grantsmil]

Here is a photo of a service dress jacket being worn, early in the Great War, with the Geneva cross badge.

[trenchtrotter]

Not scientific I am afraid but I have just checked my pc collection and examined the RAMC chaps under an eye glass. Most of the red cross arm badges appear to have a very dark outer circle that contrasts heavily with the khaki SD material. This would suggest the backing is indeed black / dark blue. On one photo however taken in Leicester of a group of "older" RAMC orderlies and a Dr (taken outside a home hospital hence the older orderlies one of which is my wifes great grandfather) there is an orderly whose red cross is on a drab background an d different to the others so I assume this is the OD backing and the contrast is no where near so obvious as all the others.

Re the RAMC tunic in my collection, absolutely no evidence of the badges not being original.

Hope this helps the debate.

Regards

TT

[Grovetown]

I'm sure I've seen other actual tunics besides this one - though I haven't specifically made notes of them....

Believe you've seen my two, one of which is shown here. Also: another RAMC MM winner with black-backed 'Genevas', with a photo of him wearing what is pretty indisputably the same (i.e actual) tunic.

Best wishes,

GT.

[trenchtrotter]

Some of mp pcs, not conclusive here but under the glass they are as described earlier. Not shown the home service one yet.

1. Taken in Alloa Scotland.

2. Taken in Germany during the occupation...9th Div.

3. Taken in France...MM winner.

4. As above. Some MM winners and patches of unknown unit.

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