BWM Miniature with bar

[depaor01]

Hi:

I'm wondering if this miniature BWM with "Narrow Seas 1914" bar is the real thing (well the bar at least). I picked it up last year, but I have my suspicions.

The metal looks slightly different to that of the medal itself and it doesn't look as old as the ribbon.

Any comments appreciated.

Thanks,

Dave

[high wood]

There was talk of bars being issued for naval actions of the Great War but the idea was abandoned due to the cost involved. I believe that some bars were available unofficially.

[Staffsyeoman]

I think there's nothing wrong with it - bars were proposed and authorised (68 for the Army, 79 for the Navy), but the scheme was cancelled for the full-size medals, but the Navy miniature bars were allowed and many miniatures were made.

[Philip Wilson]

I believe this is a marriage - it looks like an original swivel type miniature BWM with a slip on style bar (clasp for the purists) which may not be of original manufacture.

The clasp should read Narrow Seas 1914 not Narrow Seas.1914

The list of Naval clasps authorised in August 1920 is quite precise in this respect no full stop.

Miniature BWM's can be found with slip on type clasps or block mounted when worn in attributable groups. This example which retains its original toning is part of an attributable group supplied by J.R Gaunt & Son Ltd to a Officer in the Royal Navy. You will see there are no fullstops in any of the dated actions.

In this example the block mounted clasps are affixed by two lugs to the suspension

Fullsize clasps where never issued but occassionally you may see privately manufactured clasps affixed to the British War Medal.

Miniatures are intended to be an accurate representation of their full size counterparts however variants are found such as the 1914-15 Star with a central scroll incorrectly inscribed Aug - November 1914-15. Miniature medals are a subject in themselves with discernable differences being accounted for by the differing manufacturers.

Philip

[depaor01]

The clasp should read Narrow Seas 1914 not Narrow Seas.1914

..... variants are found such as the 1914-15 Star with a central scroll incorrectly inscribed Aug - November 1914-15.

Philip

Hi Philip:

That full stop aroused my suspicions also - grammatically spurious at the very least! Lovely example in your post.

I'll be checking my miniature stars later on....

Thanks for that,

Dave

[Staffsyeoman]

I never get too hung up on miniatures; after all, they are not 'sealed pattern' and much variation can ensue between makers. Some are truly 'miniature' representations of the full size, some can be so far off the beam as to make you think if the makers had only seen an outline of the medal. I admit, I've not seen any 'fake' Naval bars, so a closer examination of the material from which it is made might be in order. Without that, I don't think the presence of the dot is a killer (I've seen perfectly OK WW2 miniature clasps which say France & Germany - not - AND).

[per ardua per mare per terram]

One of the reasons that the cost was deemed prohibative was due to the number of clasps that would be required; another was the administration that would be needed to verify the entitlement -- there was enough difficulties administering the clasp for the 1914 Star! I would be suspicious of a one clasp medal for naval personnel: it would be a rarity given the requirements of the service and thus possibly claiming to be more than it is. That would count far more than the presence or absence of a full stop.

[Philip Wilson]

In recent years I have noticed a fair number of singleton miniature BWM's being offered for sale with one or more slip on clasps for naval actions. In the past Military Tailors will have held stocks of most British Orders, Decorations and Medals, as their businesses have closed so their unsold stock will have surfaced.

Those miniature BWM's with one or more clasps mounted as shown in the example in post 4 are more likely to have been actually worn by someone who qualified for those naval clasps.

Philip

[Odin]

I think Philip is right - military tailors jumped the gun somewhat after WWI and starting stocking up, no doubt including the bars for the BWM (the Navy bars were actually approved by the King). Some years ago I bought a length of Gallipoli Star Ribbon from a medal shop that had taken over some old stock from a military tailor who was closing down. This was years before the Australian Goverment actually issued the medal to vets. So the particular ribbon I have was made for a medal that was never officially issued in the UK (effectively it was replaced by the 1914-5 Star).

[gem22]

Can someone enlighten me please?

Are miniatures 'official' anyway? I was of the impression that these were 'purchased' by the recipient of the original medals and were not 'awarded' as such. I understood that miniatures were not for wear on uniforms that were worn on parade but only on such forms of dress as mess kit or dinner jacket/evening wear.

Can someone put me right on this point please.

Thanks

Garth

[Odin]

Normally minatures are privated purchased and as you say normally worn at formal occassions with mess kit or dinner jackets/evening wear. They are made by a number of different companies and so are not all identical, some are quite frankly appallingly made.

However you do get some medals where the full size medal is also issued with a minature version - one current example is the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal being dished out to veterans for service in Malaya in the 1950s. This medal comes in a fitted case containing the full medal, the minature and a ribbon bar for wear on uniform etc (which is a bit ironic as this medal doesn't have authority for wear!).

[per ardua per mare per terram]

So this could have been a contemporary miniture made up and sold, one made up but held in stock unsold for many years or a modern miniture ordered by a collector.

[Odin]

Judging by the style of the suspender for the BWM - with the swivel on the top of the medal - I would say that minature is definitely not a modern one - I bought one second hand just like that back in the late 1960s when I first started collecting medals. Besides if you were making one now you would make the suspender as simple as possible to cut down the costs.

[auchonvillerssomme]

How can you fake an item that was never genuine?

[Philip Wilson]

Without examining it -its more likely to be a contemporary miniature to which a clasp has been added at some time. The chances are its either unsold Military Tailor's stock or a miniature BWM which has been dismantled from its original group to which a clasp has been added. The miniature medal is not of modern manufacture although the clasp itself does not look contemporary.

From a collector's point of view the story behind the clasp Narrow Seas 1914 is far more meaningful when the miniature medal is part of an attributable set mounted as worn. On its own its just an example of a clasp.

Different manufacturers continue to produce 19th/20th Century Miniature Medals and clasps and as pointed out by others these are not always of the highest quality - for some do contain errors.

The Miniature Victory Medal when worn in Miniature Groups of British manufacture has two permutations on the reverse - 'The Great War for Civilisation 1914-19' and the incorrect version 'The Great War for Civilization 1914-19' . This medal is known as the Allied Medal with 13 other Allied Countries producing variants worn from the same ribbon with the standing figure of Victory on the obverse.

Philip

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Can someone enlighten me please?

Are miniatures 'official' anyway? I was of the impression that these were 'purchased' by the recipient of the original medals and were not 'awarded' as such. I

You are absolutely right Garth miniatures are in the main private purchases & therefore manufactured by various Companies in various qualities to meet a demand they are not Officially "Awarded" but have official sanction for wear at various functionary events were "Miniatures are to be worn",they were primarily an Officer based thing @ the time of WW1,whren ORs would not normally attend such events

How can you fake an item that was never genuine?

I think the Terms Contemporary & Modern would be more accurate???

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The men who required these minitures could also have created a demand for decades after WWI, hence the need for tailors to keep stocks available. After WW2 there may be men commissioned in that war who may want minatures. That would also mean they would probably have a range manufactured at different times.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Contemporary to what? They could be made and worn really any time up until the last survivor who was issued the full size medals died.

[Philip Wilson]

Contemporary to what? They could be made and worn really any time up until the last survivor who was issued the full size medals died.

'Miniatures which are contemporary with the original award are rated more highly than replacements procurred many years later.'

Some people like to collect miniatures and mount them in display cases like butterflies - there will always be a market for this line of collecting whether contemporary or modern reproductions of 19th/20th Century miniatures.

Others collect attributable miniature groups and get just as much fun researching them as those who research full size medals.

Philip

[Bombadier]

My father in law only had his medals as minatures (apart from his DSC). He was in the merchant navy post war 2 and the company thought that they would impress the passengers. When we claimed his medals a few years ago we found that his entitlement was different to those he had been wearing.

Nigel

[hubbar49]

Hi...

Would you believe that here in Belgium, as military servicemen, we have to buy our own national medals?

For the "boss" to pin it on your breast a bit later "as a gift"....

the great benevolent offer for the fatherland....

[hubbar49]

and yes, speaking of wearing other medals that those you are entitled to, I remember once I had to defend a fellow in front of a military court, I just borrowed the row of medals from a friend... Nobody never noticed the fact! (and, by the way, I won the cause!)