david john henry 14205 a coy 9th batt rwf

[richenry]

my grandfather david john henry 14205 joined the 9th battalion rwf in sept1915 and was captured 30th may 1918 near marne, information recieved from the red cross indicates that he was part of A company. my query is would he have been part of A company throughout his time with the 9th battalion or were men transferred from one company to another to replace losses. i intend to look up the battalion diaries and think it would be helpfull if i could pin him down to a particular companyof men. any help relating to this query would be much appreciated.

[clive_hughes]

Hi,

no. 14205 RWF on the Medal Roll Index Cards is a Private David I. or J. Henry, but as he landed in France on 5 September 1915 he must have joined up quite a bit earlier than that! According to the card he was later transferred to the Labour Corps as Private 489907 and Demobilized on 12 March 1919.

Does this fit in with the other information you have? The 9th RWF landed in France on 19 July 1915 but he could have been a reinforcement. His number in the 14,000 series is more typical of the 11th RWF (that's not watertight, though); and the 11th did actually land in France in early September 1915 - but only passing through en route to a different theatre of war in Salonika!

Sticking with the 9th, they were heavily engaged in the German March and April 1918 offensives, and was then moved to the Aisne (not Marne) to rest and refit. The unit was doubtless brought up to strength and it is not impossible that your relative had earlier served with the 11th and was then somehow (usually sent home sick/wounded) available as a reinforcement to the 9th - that's just a guess, mind you. Do you have access to any surviving service papers?

At any rate on 27 May the Germans opened a new offensive against the French on the Aisne. The 19th Division including 9th RWF was rushed up by bus to Bligny on the 29 May, and then deployed forward. Early on 30 May the enemy moved, and the division was heavily attacked, and various units infiltrated and surrounded. Despite heavy close-quarter fighting most of the 9th RWF was killed or captured in the area Faverolles-Coemy-Bois d'Aulnay. Only a handful escaped. You will find an account in Dudley Ward, Regimental Records of the Royal Welch Fusiliers, Vol.III, available as a reprint.

I hope this helps.

LST_164

[richenry]

many thanks for your reply, unfortunatly my grandfathers service records do not appear to have survived the blitz, family folklore suggested that he had indeed fought the turks and had been a prisoner of war, we have a copy of the repatriation letter from the king. from early research i had presumed that he had been with the 11th,this fitted in with his date of embarkation in france and the family history !! it was quite a surprise when i recieved a reply to my enquiry with the red cross which indicated his battalion to have been the 9th down to company level A coy, the reply also indicated three prison camps where he was interned. i can only presume that on repatriation in nov 1918 he was transferred into the labour corps for some reason rather than being returned to the 9th.i have a copy of the regimental records by dudley ward and can recommend it to anybody researching the rwf. it is my intention to visit the rwf museum in caernarfon and thought it may be usefull to establish if grandad would likley have been in the same company throughout his time in france/flanders ???

further is it possible that having landed on the same date as the 11th could he have been transferred to the 9th before the 11th were sent to salonika ??

[richenry]

now beginning to think that he may well have spent most of the war in salonika with the 11th and possibly been a replacement for the the 9th after their actions of march-april 1918 !!!! is there anyway of bottoming this out without his service records ???? anybody aware of similar circs ??

[KevinBattle]

If the only source for your statement that he was in the 9th Battalion was from the Red Cross records relating to his capture in May 1918, then the rest of your details fit better with the 11th Battalion. You then need to establish when he transferred to the 9th. I would have agreed that after the German offensive in March and April, there was a need to call back other Battalions to fill the gaps. I doubt he would have been alone, so troop movements of that size should be traceable.

I thought Salonika was a fairly unhealthy place, so there might be hospital records or sent home with wounds and then transferred to the 9th. As for moving between Companies, I would assume he would stay, unless offered promotion in another Company, as sometimes it is difficult for men to take orders from a chap who a day earlier was one of them....

[Ivor Lee]

A Labour Corps number of 489907 suggests a man transferred to the Corps in November or December 1917 and that this transfer took place in the UK.

Looking at the Medal Card entry I did wonder whether the Labour Corps entry was an error as his Medal Roll entry is not shown as in the Labour Corps books.

Ivor

[richenry]

first of all many thanks to kevin w4 and lst 164 for your observations without grandads service records, any pointers as to how i can find out about troop movements from the 11th to bolster the depleted ranks of the 9th, would there be such records and where might i find them ?? also any pointers as to where i might find hospital records as suggested by kevin w4 ?? any help would be very much appreciated

[richenry]

thanks ivor, seems to be getting more confusing though, his capture on 30 may 1918 fits with him being with the 9th at that time at the aisne, but may fit in with him being transferred from the 11th to the labour corps, is it possible that he was with the labour corps when captured, the red cross letter however relates to him being 9th batt A comp.

confused

[clive_hughes]

richenry,

The medal cards are just the index to the actual Medal Rolls, held at the National Archives, Kew. The reference number on the card will lead you to the actual entry on the Rolls for the 1914-15 Star and separately the British War/Victory Medals, where there may be confirmation of his battalions and possibly other details.

I agree with Ivor: if a man transferred regiment/corps, although the unit he was serving with when he first entered a theatre of war is the one stamped on the medals, it is usually issued through the last regiment/corps he served with and that reflects in the card reference number. Go and see what it says (or get someone to look on your behalf)!

I hope Ivor will excuse my saying that men were often transferred to that Corps because of a lower physical health grading (result of wounds etc.). That might be true of a released POW, but a 1917 transfer doesn't square at all with his being captured with the 9th RWF in 1918. Even if he'd been with the 11th RWF in Salonika, fallen ill and come back to the UK; been transferred in consequence to the Labour Corps; then clawed back after the German Offensives and transferred again to the 9th RWF it would show on the Medal Card as he'd have to have a brand new RWF regimental number.

Other sources - you know where he was from, so local newspapers might pick up on his enlistment (it looks like a 1914 or early 1915 number); any news of his wounding/being back home with sickness; his capture; his repatriation in 1918 etc. That's a lot of searching through newsprint, though!

As for the company, I also agree for what it's worth that men tended to stay with the same one unless there were specific circumstances which made it advisable to change.

LST_164

[richenry]

once again thank you for the pointers, will have to get sight of the medal rolls somehow and will look into local newspaper archives (recently retired so should have plenty of time to do so !) have only just recommenced research after a break, but have previously identified other rwf 9th battalion soldiers with numbers close to my grandfather as having been kia in france/flanders so not sure how accurate the previous reply relating to the numbers being associated to the11th battalion was ??? although he landed in france at the same time as the 11th and sometime after the 9th could he have come over as a replacement for the 9th at that time ??

[clive_hughes]

All sorts of things might have happened (and frequently did) as regards unusual transfers. I run into them all the time. The block of numbers in the 14000 range tended to be allocated by the regimental record office to men in the 11th RWF, but as I said before that's not watertight even though his disembarkation date coincides with the 11th's arrival in France. Our member "Grumpy" is the man to ask about allocation of RWF numbers and he might also have a stab at when they were issued, so giving you a rough enlistment date.

Looking by comparison at the embarkation roll of the 14th RWF one finds all sorts of numbers outside their particular block so yes, he could have been given a number from one unit block but then (sooner or later) transferred to another unit. As long as he stayed within the same Regiment that wouldn't usually alter. It doesn't change the fact that he landed in France several months after the 9th went over, but as you have seen there is more than one explanation for that!

If you're stuck for getting across to the NA Kew, there are pals on the Forum who may be willing to look the rolls up for you, if you post the request separately. Otherwise I can recommend a researcher who goes there roughly fortnightly, if you PM me.

LST_164

[KevinBattle]

Well, searching for Service numbers with 1420- produces these 2

Search results for: + ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS + 1420. records found: 4 (of 4)

Page 1 of 1

001 DIXON J 14201 B COY 11TH BN 22/09/1918 ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS

002 ROBERTS S 14208 11TH BN 18/09/1918 ROYAL WELSH FUSILIERS

Using 14,2-- only has 2 outside of 11th Battn and they are both 10th Battn, not 9th...

So, it would seem on the balance of probability, that he served with 11th Battn, may have been wounded or reduced in fitness, perhaps Home to recover, maybe transfer to Labour Corps, regained A1 fitness and drafted as reinforcement to 9th Battn (probably easier than shipping him all the way back to Salonika) and then capture. As to possible dates, it's all conjecture!!

[Hywyn]

Enlistment date for that number is first week September 1914

Hywyn

[richenry]

Many, many thanks for all your responses to date, I have just looked at his MIC again and curiously part is written in red ink and part in blue.

His name, 1st reg (rwf)and his serial number are in red ink together with his 15 star roll and page number, theatre of war first served in (france) date of entry therein (5-9-15) also remarks-demob 12.3.19 in red ink.

In blue ink lab corps serial number 489907, also roll and page number for victory and british medal in blue. is there any signficance in this ?

[richenry]

HYWYN, many thanks re date of enlistment, it would mean that he enlisted some 12 months befoer he went overseas, was this normal,bearing in mind the demand for manpower ?? date of entry in france 5/9/1915

[Hywyn]

I would say that it was pretty normal for those that had been posted to a Service Battalion. They generally would have stayed with the Battalion (in training etc) until the Battalion went overseas. The 9th were formed 9th September whilst the 11th were formed 18th October.

http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm

As someone has pointed out the answer to which actual battalion he went over with and subsequent moves lies in the actual Medal Roll at Kew.

Hywyn

[Bernard_Lewis]

The 14th Welsh started recruiting in August 1914, was accepted by the War Office and went to France 2 December 1915. So a good year to form and train.

Bernard