Royal Army Service Corps in Ireland

[Fras54]

Dear Forum

I found my grand father as a sergeant major in the Royal Army Service Corps - Waterford February 1919. He was Irish from north county Dublin and was not a professional soldier prior to 1914. The rank suggests to me that he served throughout the war. But where? I have found no medals or Reg number to go on. But is there a list of Sergeant majors somewhere that might help? Grateful for any leads.

Fras54

[sotonmate]

Fras54

It's a bit inhibiting not to know his name,and any other details you have !

Sotonmate

[Fras54]

Quite so. Thanks. His name was Andrew Joseph Moore. He would have been about 30 in 1919.

Fras54

[tony paley]

You first asked wat he would be doing. There was a large military garrison in Ireland during that period. The Army Service Corps did not become Royal until 1918 tis may help your searc.

Tony P

[Fras54]

Thanks Tony P

But I'd guessed that much. I was rather wondering whether there was any part of the Army List that recorded warrant officers' names and units. Any help from any knowledgeable quarter welcome

[Peridot]

I don't think there is such a list and certainly not for the ASC Fras. ASC men are not easy to trace if the service record is lost and unfortunately the majority are. Have you checked on Ancestry? Similarly he should have a medal index card on Ancestry which will refer you to his Medal Roll at the Public Record Office at Kew and which may though unlikely give a Unit. You may get access to Ancestry via your local library or their free trial offer if it is still going as long as you remember to cancel it.

This should get you started.

Good Luck.

Peridot

[Fras54]

Thanks Peridot

I have a World Subscription to Ancestry and I've not found him in any of the obvious places [pensions,medals] yet. I had thought to write to the Military Archivist in Dublin, but no go there either. There seems to have been a collective amnesia in Ireland after 1920. I hesitate to make the long journey to Kew without a little more of a target to aim for. Would ASC battalions keep diaries?

Frase54

[corisande]

It's usually a good idea to check 1911 census online. It can show whether he was in the army then

I have no idea who his parents were, but there is an Andrew Moore of the right age here in North Dublin who was a farmers son then. If that is he, he was not in the army then

[Peridot]

Thanks Peridot

I have a World Subscription to Ancestry and I've not found him in any of the obvious places [pensions,medals] yet. I had thought to write to the Military Archivist in Dublin, but no go there either. There seems to have been a collective amnesia in Ireland after 1920. I hesitate to make the long journey to Kew without a little more of a target to aim for. Would ASC battalions keep diaries?

Frase54

Hi Frase

There were no such things as Battalions in the ASC which was composed of Companies in 4 sections-Horse, Motor, Re-mount and Supply. There were many pre-fixes denoting which branch and the trade within that branch. A good general introduction based on researching an ASC Motor Transport soldier is Norman Holding's Federation of Family History Societies booklet-World War 1 Army Ancestry which I think is still in print. The Units did keep War Diaries if you can trace the one he was with. I am in the same position with my grandfather who was in Motor Transport.

Your journey to Kew may well yield nothing as Unit details for the named Corps of specialised troops rarely give this information. He may have appeared as an absent voter on either Irish or UK lists if serving abroad in 1918 and these would normally be held in libraries and record offices for where he lived in 1918-not sure whether they had these lists in Ireland. These usually gave Units as the information was given by the soldiers themselves.

Hope this helps.

Peridot

[Fras54]

Thanks Corisande,

You gentlemen are really sharp! Thanks for that. Well spotted. That's him all right in north county Dublin. But I knew already. The underlying puzzle of how he went from being a peace-loving farmer's son to a sergeant major in the British Army remains!

One sliver of a clue may be that his father was a fairly big horse trader and may well have supplied the British Army with steeds or mules before and during the war. I can't be sure, but it may be a lead. So following on from Peridot's tip, I feel inclined to start an investigation of Remount Companies - in particular the Remount Depot in Dublin. It seems as good a place as any to make a start.

Would MHG Young or any other source include this squadron in their writings? Any other pointers?

Fras54

[Peridot]

If you havent already Frase you really need to use your Ancestry sub to check the Medal Index Cards as this will give you useful info re his number and the branch of tha ASC he was in. This can usually be gleaned from the letter pre-fix and Re-mount will be R, Motor M, Supply S and Horse H or T followed by his number. If you have already looked and there isnt a card for him then it is probable he did not serve overseas and had no medal entitlement.

Young's book covers all branches of the Corps in depth and has a lot of information in it. You may get a copy through your local library.

There is a link to the Medal Card Index on the LLT site at the top left of this page, as really you need his number to take the matter much forward and an idea of his medal entitlement if any.

Peridot

[corisande]

how he went from being a peace-loving farmer's son to a sergeant major in the British Army

If we go back to basics, how do you know he was a Sgt Major in the British Army in 1919.

He will not have a MIC unless he served abroad at some time - check the criteria

[Fras54]

Well

I have reports of his marriage from several contemporary newspapers to go for his Army rank. Then [from a few weeks later] I have his marriage certificate where he declares himself as a Lieutenant in the AFC. See the attachment. Could it be a Free Irish rank or designation?

I think the Australian Flying Corps is too improbable for words. I've been clutching at straws, my last one being that his father was a big horse trader who may have supplied horses to the British. So my wild guess is that his son, Andrew, got himself into the Remount Company in Dublin. I found out somewhere that their lowest rank was sergeant which might also explain why he got to such a senior rank in 4 short years.

[corisande]

Have you tried the London Gazette for a promotion - afraid I have difficulty trawling their index, otherwise I would look.

[corisande]

Having looked at your scan, I think it is "AIC" or Army Intelligence Corps

If it is, he had a dangerous job in Ireland in 1919!!!

[Fras54]

Well

Going by how the rest of the family stacked up between 1919-22 I'd be absolutely gob-smacked if that were true. I've had a long hard look at the other lettering by the clerk in that register and the "F"s are by far the closest match. Have a look for yourself. Anyway he's hardly likely to advertise the fact of his Intelligence role out on a public document. Is he?

Picking up on what you said about the Gazette I did find a tantalising reference in the London Gazette dated 14 February 1919 [issue number:31180/ Page number:2271] to a "Moore, A.F.C. 1st Oct. 1918.1st Nov". But I've lost it and now the b***** Gazette is not showing its PDFs.

[Peridot]

That middle letter does look like an F, I must admit.

Peridot

[corisande]

Certainly an F, compare with the F in "Full" on same document

[Fras54]

Certainly an F, compare with the F in "Full" on same document

I've scoured the London Gazette and although there are some references to the AFC in Flying Arm supplements, this is clearly a decoration. Anyway, I think it's a real stretch of the imagination to see a career line from Irish farm boy to Sjt/Maj in ASC to Lieut in Flying Corps. The Lieutenant enough however seems solid so......

Does any have an Army List for 1918 or 1919 that they could look up an Andrew Moore [possibly Andrew J Moore] for me please?

Fras54