truthergw Posted 16 March , 2011 Share Posted 16 March , 2011 Not at all my field but I would also like to thank you for the trouble you have taken in presenting this information. I always enjoy seeing expertise being demonstrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 16 March , 2011 Share Posted 16 March , 2011 I'm surprised no body has asked, but what was an "Experimental quatermaster-serjeant"? Alan Alan I've only just come across this enthralling thread, but I may be able to shed some light on the Experimental Quartermasetr-Sergeant. I haven't actually come across that rank, but I have come across the following Royal Artillery ranks: Experimental Battery Sergeant-Major An Assistant Instructor in Gunnery posted permanently to experimental work under the auspices of the Master-General of the Ordnance department of the War Office. This rank/position is now defunct. Experimental Sergeant-Major An Assistant Instructor in Gunnery posted permanently to experimental work under the auspices of the Master-General of the Ordnance department of the War Office. This rank/position is now defunct. I hope that it sheds a little light on your question. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerd.deboeck Posted 16 March , 2011 Share Posted 16 March , 2011 Some questions are beyond the wit of mortal man. Similar queries are: what about the TM blue grenade, and what about Grenadier Guards NCOs bomber or TM qualified? The only answer seems to lie with a phpt in wear, and that might only be illustrating one individual's preference, or a unit edict. So, pass! Thanks Grumpy, now at least I know that the question isn't a stupid one. Also my gratitude for the lecture in WW1 rank badges!! Cheers Gerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2011 nice photo and a question occurs to me to put to a HAC buff. If this soldier were a Grenadier, his appointment would be lance-corporal [paid or unpaid] and he would be addressed as corporal. In the HAC, with its strong GG association, was that still true, or is this man a full [paid] corporal rank? Ahhhhh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerd.deboeck Posted 17 March , 2011 Share Posted 17 March , 2011 nice photo and a question occurs to me to put to a HAC buff. If this soldier were a Grenadier, his appointment would be lance-corporal [paid or unpaid] and he would be addressed as corporal. In the HAC, with its strong GG association, was that still true, or is this man a full [paid] corporal rank? Ahhhhh! I'll put the dilemmas before my contact at the HAC archive and see what he thinks. Here's a couple more: enjoy Gerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2011 I'll put the dilemmas before my contact at the HAC archive and see what he thinks. Here's a couple more: enjoy Gerd Of course a photo of a man in HAC with only one chevron would clinch the matter, as GG do not commit such a solecisim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerd.deboeck Posted 18 March , 2011 Share Posted 18 March , 2011 Of course a photo of a man in HAC with only one chevron would clinch the matter, as GG do not commit such a solecisim. You won't find one, the HAC is also not in to solecism (nice word by the way, not in my Dutch/English dictionary though): "HAC ranks were identical to the GG. One chevron NOT used. Two chevrons and grenade (lance-corporal). Three chevrons and grenade (lance-sergeant) Three chevrons and grenade (sergeant) - distinguished by a red sash on parades/ceremonials." But there is a but: "During WW1 there may have been some differences, especially in respect of the Warrant Officer ranks and I am not certain when the full corporal rank (2 chevrons plus grenade) became a lance-sergeant with three chevrons to permit entry to the Sergeants' Mess of the GG and other regiments and when the two chevron and grenade was simply a lance-corporal." And there is hope: "I shall no doubt unfathom these mysteries in due time." Concerning the bomber/mortar badge I got this reply: "The grenade worn by HAC NCOs is part of the rank badge (as per Grenadier Guards) - as such it is never replaced by any other badge. Qualification and trade badges would normally be worn on the lower left sleeve, which is where the red bomber badge would have been placed." This last one is open to discussion I would say.... Gerd (with thanks to Gerry from the HAC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2011 Thanks very much ..... I have taken that on board. For info. the army as a whole dropped the LSgt appointment for full corporals in 1946, and my understanding is that only the Guards retained it, firstly as an "extra" for some full corporals, later as an appointment for ALL full corporals. Even the Household Cavalry had no such level until about 20 years later, so that their full corporals were not entitled to use a Guards Mess. This was sorted by inventing Lance-corporal of Horse, badge 3 chevrons and worsted crown, whereas corporal of horse was three and a metal crown [as you know all Hse Cavy use the crown badge with ranks/ appointments as a regimental distinction]. Your informant may well be wrong about the grenade for bomber/ TM, I think he has sidestepped! It was an appointment badge, not a skill at arms, and, as such, should have been upper right. It may be that the dilemma was solved at unit level ...... there was the small matter of a war going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted 21 March , 2011 Share Posted 21 March , 2011 Experimental Sergeant-Major An Assistant Instructor in Gunnery posted permanently to experimental work under the auspices of the Master-General of the Ordnance department of the War Office. This rank/position is now defunct. I hope that it sheds a little light on your question. Phil Thankyou Phill, quite logical really. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerd.deboeck Posted 9 April , 2011 Share Posted 9 April , 2011 I've got this reply from the Guards Museum London: "Regarding a Bomber, I have seen photographs of WWI Grenadier Guards sergeant bombers and they wear the three bar chevrons with the khaki crown bomb above and above that the bomb badge, it does looks strange, as they are wearing two grenade badges." Now the hunt is on for one of those photographs...... Gerd Thanks very much ..... I have taken that on board. For info. the army as a whole dropped the LSgt appointment for full corporals in 1946, and my understanding is that only the Guards retained it, firstly as an "extra" for some full corporals, later as an appointment for ALL full corporals. Even the Household Cavalry had no such level until about 20 years later, so that their full corporals were not entitled to use a Guards Mess. This was sorted by inventing Lance-corporal of Horse, badge 3 chevrons and worsted crown, whereas corporal of horse was three and a metal crown [as you know all Hse Cavy use the crown badge with ranks/ appointments as a regimental distinction]. Your informant may well be wrong about the grenade for bomber/ TM, I think he has sidestepped! It was an appointment badge, not a skill at arms, and, as such, should have been upper right. It may be that the dilemma was solved at unit level ...... there was the small matter of a war going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 April , 2011 Share Posted 9 April , 2011 I've got this reply from the Guards Museum London: "Regarding a Bomber, I have seen photographs of WWI Grenadier Guards sergeant bombers and they wear the three bar chevrons with the khaki crown above and above that the bomb badge, it does looks strange, as they are wearing two grenade badges." Now the hunt is on for one of those photographs...... Gerd Gerd, do you mean khaki 'bomb' above rather than 'crown' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerd.deboeck Posted 9 April , 2011 Share Posted 9 April , 2011 The second mail from The Museum: "Further to my first email: Something I typed wrong above the chevrons should have read grenade and not crown. Sorry for this" And of course I forgot to correct when I posted the reply. So also from me: Sorry for this. Gerd Gerd, do you mean khaki 'bomb' above rather than 'crown' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike050443 Posted 17 April , 2011 Share Posted 17 April , 2011 Hi Grumpy, I thought that the photo attached might be of interest on this thread. The soldier is John Thomas Ellis Churchill, Royal Engineers I think. KIA 15 September 1916 in 'Flanders' I was told, age 31. I didn't see an inverted horse shoe patch on this thread ~ would that signify cavalry? I see that he has his spurs on and riding crop at the ready and I am impressed with the embroided design on the cuffs. I have sent a PM to you requesting a copy of this enthralling guide. I will make a similar posting on the 'Soldiers ~ looking for information' thread as I would like to find out more about him. Many thanks for all your hard work on this guide, it is much appreciated and very useful. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 17 April , 2011 Share Posted 17 April , 2011 Grumpy's on holiday at present so suggest you send him a PM about the booklet. The photograph is pre war and could be RE. He is wearing a tunic and overalls. The horseshoe badge is that of a Farrier or Shoeing Smith hence the spurs and riding crop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 17 April , 2011 Share Posted 17 April , 2011 The badge is in David's booklet. Squirrel's correct. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike050443 Posted 18 April , 2011 Share Posted 18 April , 2011 Thanks for replies Squirrel and Anthony. I have sent a PM to Grumpy and hope for a reply on his return. I will also be posting the photo on the 'Soldiers ~ looking for information' forum. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 18 April , 2011 Share Posted 18 April , 2011 Andrew Upton wrote: the 33rd Div domino patches are modern reproductions made for the group, although there has been some argument as to how correct they are for war-time use I am somewhat confused. Do you mean to say that the domino patches were never worn by 33rd Division personnel during the Great War or that the reproduction patches are not a true representation of the domino patches worn during the Great War? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 18 April , 2011 Share Posted 18 April , 2011 Andrew Upton wrote: I am somewhat confused. Do you mean to say that the domino patches were never worn by 33rd Division personnel during the Great War or that the reproduction patches are not a true representation of the domino patches worn during the Great War? There is evidence to suggest the domino patch/logo was not adopted until early post-war, so their use in a Great War context is therefore not strictly accurate. Otherwise they are a faithful representation of the design as appears to have been used on helmets and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 24 April , 2011 Share Posted 24 April , 2011 Very enjoyable & informative thread although my head hurts from fathoming some of the variant senior sergeant ranks! I have had this dilemma myself when trying to ascertain exactly what was worn in the late Victorian period by a Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry in RMLI. I have had a lot of advice & help in this but still not 100% sure what it definitely was that was worn on the sleeve. I look forward to reading more of this, many thanks to Grumpy! Regards...Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SgtMajorBoot Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Good afternoon all, I am new to this forum and have read some good stuff. Thankyou. Has the, question when did the cross hatching appear on Cpl and Sgt Stripes appear been answered? In an earlier thread on this 'means' a resounding, 'we are not 100% yet' was the consensus of opinion. That was a couple of years ago. Has anyone any further info to add please? Sgt Major Boot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 16 November , 2014 Share Posted 16 November , 2014 and a few more: S in wreath is India: Infantry scout. The large band badge is for the Bandmaster. The Fleur-de-Lys with cross bar is for First Class Scout. Two sizes were made, the smaller one was the later version. The senior scouts badge being worn. Two of them in the same photo though I moved them next to each other for ease of posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2014 In theory that superb photo should not be much later than 1907, when the BIG version was officially to be replaced by the small version. I think if I had the big one I would wear it on Sundays, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 20 November , 2014 Share Posted 20 November , 2014 X hatch single chevron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2014 Nice but what on earth is his badge on left cuff ..... not a familiar wreath is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 20 November , 2014 Share Posted 20 November , 2014 Nice but what on earth is his badge on left cuff ..... not a familiar wreath is it? Any better for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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