Cpl. Emanuel Joseph Taylor 20/933

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Hi. I am after details of a Cpl. Emanuel Joseph Taylor (20/933) who died 1 july 1916. He was part in the 1st Tyneside Scottish battalion, which became 20th tyneside Scottish - a part of 102nd Brigade, 34th division in the battle of Somme WW1. I have searched the board for him with no luck. However, thanks to this website and its members' posts, i was able to find a reference of a book, which upon finding it at the library i discovered a picture of Joseph Taylor (20/933), who is my great great grandfather. So thank for that! I am discovering new information all the time about his particular Battalion and can only assume he was part of the initial rush on the town of La Boisselle, though i could be wrong. I seem to be at a brick wall with his personal details however, and it is this that i seek the boards advice and expertese. I know he was born in Tynemouth and lived in Morpeth, Northumberland. When he died, he left a widow and 9 children (though i only know of 8), 2 of which were twins who he sadly did not get to see as his wife was pregnant when he went off to war. Any information will be greatly recieved. Andrew

[Bardess]

Hi Andrew and welcome. Afraid I can't help that much but here is his CWGC entry [no personal details though]

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Thanks. Thats where i initially made the discovery about his unit etc. Im am researching my family tree and the only information i got was that he served in WW1 with the Northumberland Fusiliers and died in France. His name was Emanuel Joseph Taylor, though he was sometimes just known as Joseph Taylor. His wife was expecting when he left for war. Oh, and that he lived in Morpeth, born Tynemouth.

It was from that website you mention that i found out about the Tyneside Scottish and the Thiepval memorial and the fact that he died on the 1st day of the great battle of Somme (which im still researching). I have just found out about the 2 great mine explosions on the 1st July, which seems to be his group.

[Bardess]

As you've put plenty of info in the title I'm sure many experts will swoop in soon. Good luck with your quest

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

I hope so. Thanks : )

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

To Diane, youre post mentions "In memory of my Great Uncle R/239 Lance Corporal Jeffrey Robert Shakespeare, A Coy 11th Bn KRRC".

I have just made a list of books to look for at the library and one is by Lt. Col. J. Shakespeare, titled "Thirty-fourth Division, 1915-1919: The Story of Its Career from Ripon to the Rhine".

Any relation?

[Graham Stewart]

20/933 Cpl Emanuel Joseph Taylor served with 'B' Company, 20th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers(1st Tynesside Scotttish). Body was never recovered and he was posted as "Missing in Action" 1/7/1916 in the Red Cross Enquiry List, which is why he was included on Thiepval Memorial. The regimental journal also records him as "Missing", but not until October 1916, this is because of the length of time taken to find out exactly what happend to him.

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Oh, i see. Reading the other posts on this forum i get the impression that 1st Tyneside Scottish (or 20th Tyneside Scottish during WW1) surrered the heaviest losses on 1 July 1916. Is it safe to assume that he lost his life during the raid on La Boisselle on that day? I cannot find any reference yet that indicates the 20th Tyneside Scottish being anywhere else that day.

Also, am i right my phrasing in saying that "he died in the battle of Somme", or is this a completelly different battle.

Thanks for that, i didnt know he was B company.

Andrew

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi Andrew

You are confusing yourself by getting the unit title wrong

They were the 20th (Service) Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers (1st Tyneside Scottish) generally refered to as 1/TS

The action at La Boiselle was not a raid but the initial opening of the Battle of The Somme.

Unfortunately the 20th Battalion are the only one of the Brigade that we dont have company locations for.

10/West Yorks and 1/Newfoundland Regt had more casualties than 1/TS on 1/7/16

There are many good books that will explain the background to The Battle of the Somme. Try Martin Middlebrookes First Day on the Somme.

regards

John

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Thanks John, thats a little clearer. I'll add the book you mention to my list of books to get from the library.

The book i got after recomendations off this site is called Tyneside Scottish by John Sheen and Graham Stewart, and it was in this book that i found a picture of him. Quite remarkable and a surprise, i didnt think i would ever find a photo, so thanks to the forum : )

Andrew

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

The Graham Stewart that replied above is one of the authers and the Tyneside Chinaman is the other one.

Stewart and Sheen

Your getting years of experience for free. If I remember rightly the photo was extracted from a group photo in Grahams extensive collection.

regards

John

[Bardess]

To Diane, youre post mentions "In memory of my Great Uncle R/239 Lance Corporal Jeffrey Robert Shakespeare, A Coy 11th Bn KRRC".

I have just made a list of books to look for at the library and one is by Lt. Col. J. Shakespeare, titled "Thirty-fourth Division, 1915-1919: The Story of Its Career from Ripon to the Rhine".

Any relation?

No, sadly. Our lot were 'umble Ptes and L/Cpls

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Wow, ive had replys off the 2 guys who wrote the book that has the picture of my great great grandad! I hope they read this post again and realise my reference to their book. Thank you both, it is an amazing book and im slowly working my way through it.

As an update to those interested, i showed this picture to my mum and it sparked something, which she recognised from a newspaper cutting she had a while ago. Low and behold after a bit of searching she found the article which goes on to explain that another family member had contacted the Tyneside Scottish accossiation and found this photo. It goes on to mention other family members as well as nicknames and other references.

Had she not have seen this photo, she may never have remembered the newspaper article and i wouldnt have the valuable family references. Sadly still no reference to his parents though.

The search continues.

Andrew

[Bardess]

Didn't I say the experts will swoop down

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

You were right Diane. Its been an eventful day. I only knew of Emanuel 2 days ago and now i have all this history to share with the family.

For those interested, i will post the newspaper article tomorrow (thu 25 mar) when i have time. Perhaps it may be useful for other family tree researchers in years to come.

Andrew

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Here's the newspaper article. It has the picture of Emanuel or 'Mannie' as he was known, which is a copy of the picture i first found in the book mentioned earlier. I got quite exited when i found a group photo (also in the book) with what i was sure to be Emanuel, only to realise that it was infact the photograph used to get the single shot of him.

For family historians out there, any advice on how to trace his parents (before i order a certificate)? He was born in 1879 and ive found him on all census' exept 1881. In 1891 he is living in the CRAIG household and listed as 'nephew'. This is no help to me yet but im sure it will be useful later on. In 1901 and 1911 he is living with his wife and growing family. Oh, and he was born in Tynemouth.

Andrew

[Graham Stewart]

Absolutely marvelous and I'm pleased to see that your search is begiining to show positive results even after all of these years. Also very many thanks for the complimetary comments on our book and I'm pleased that you're enjoying it. It's really encouraging to us amatuer authors, when we get such nice feed back, especially from families of those who were members of the TS and to compliment your TS copy I would recommend John's sister volume "Tyneside Irish", which would broaden your aspect of Tyneside's contribution to the fighting on that terrible day.

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

Thanks Graham, i will look into that book too.

Also, thanks to a gentleman on Genesreunited, i now have details of Emanuel's mother and father.

Once i have a fair size of information, i will post it here for those interested. Hopefully another decendant of Emanuel will see this and find it helpful.

Andrew

[magic_bart2003@yahoo.co.uk]

I have just been informed that Emanuel was listed in the battalion log as 'killed' rather than 'missing in action', indicating that someone saw him being killed. I simply assumed that because he was remembered on the Thiepval Memorial that he was one of the thousands that were missing in action or unidentifiable.

The more i read about this battle, the more i strain to comprehend the loss. I try compare the loss with the modern war in Iraq. We recently passed the 100 mark for British soldiers killed over a number of years. In the battle of the Somme 19,240 soldiers were killed on the 1st July alone. That is some difference.

I still cannot get my head around it!

[Guest Mizake]

Andrew, thanks for getting in touch with me via Genesreunited, and especially for posting the newspaper cutting. It's quite moving to see a photograph of Emmanuel Joseph, and to read the story of how Lennie (Emanuel Taylor) and Jack (John Taylor) were able to make a connection to the father they never knew.

Sadly, both Lennie and Jack passed away within a few short years of the newspaper article, and - though I knew them both during my childhood - I spent precious little time with them during the last years of their lives. My great-grandmother Isabel - Lennie and Jack's sister - passed away in 1996, and, though as a child I rarely enquired, she always clearly longed to know more about their father. I do wish that we'd been able to show her such a photograph as that in the newspaper article, as I'm certain it would have cheered her immensely.

Kevin.

[KevinBattle]

This story is typical of what I find that is so good with this Forum

One week ago, Andrew knew practically next to nothing about his g g grandfather.

Now, in just 7 days he has as complete information as there is likely to be, family memories rekindled, and another relative completing more of the picture.

Well done everyone who contributed.

Makes far, far better reading than the newspapers!