yorks & lancs, and Royal Engineers, re which battalion?

[m.campbell]

I hope I have read the Long, Long Trail info correctly, I am trying hard. I have looked up my grandad Ernest Chapman's Yorks and Lancs Regiment service number 29415 with army service numbers, and it seems he joined EITHER 3rd [Reserve] battalion in Aug 1916, OR 16th [Transport Workers] in late July 1916. As I am pretty sure he was not in the regular army prior to enlistment [which seems to be the case for the 3rd Reserve], can I assume he joined the 16th battalion? Any help would be gratefully received.

Molly

[dfaulder]

Molly

Welcome to the forum; I am sure a numbers expert will answer soon!

My Grandfather was commissioned into the 3rd Y&L (and then was attached to the 14th and then the 1/4th). He was not a soldier before the war.

Looking at your grandfather's medal card I see:

Y&LR Pte 29415

RE 236223

-- WR/264252

This may help others; RE I guess means he moved to the Royal Engineers - his medal roll numbers all start RE/

HTH

David

[sotonmate]

Molly

I saw no service record for him on Ancestry UK,so it is likely that it was destroyed in a bombing raid in London in 1940 along with around three quarters of such records from WW1.

You will be able to find which Y&L Battalion he served in from the original Medal Rolls kept at Kew Archives,that is if he served in a war zone with that Regiment. The info will be in Ledger WO329/572 page 14889,a Royal Engineers Railways record because they would have been the last unit he served in at the end of the war,and who would have been responsible for ensuring he received his campaign medals,even if he did serve at war with the Y&L. He might have transferred to the RE before he went to war,in which case you will be hoping that someone here with a knowledge of Y&L numbers can tell you which unit he served at joining up.

The REs WR number means Waterways and Railways. As you are surmising that he may have joined a Transport Bn of the Y&L is that because he was a transport driver in civvy life ?

Sotonmate

[m.campbell]

Molly

I saw no service record for him on Ancestry UK,so it is likely that it was destroyed in a bombing raid in London in 1940 along with around three quarters of such records from WW1.

You will be able to find which Y&L Battalion he served in from the original Medal Rolls kept at Kew Archives,that is if he served in a war zone with that Regiment. The info will be in Ledger WO329/572 page 14889,a Royal Engineers Railways record because they would have been the last unit he served in at the end of the war,and who would have been responsible for ensuring he received his campaign medals,even if he did serve at war with the Y&L. He might have transferred to the RE before he went to war,in which case you will be hoping that someone here with a knowledge of Y&L numbers can tell you which unit he served at joining up.

The REs WR number means Waterways and Railways. As you are surmising that he may have joined a Transport Bn of the Y&L is that because he was a transport driver in civvy life ?

Sotonmate

Thank you for your replies,

All I have for him is his medal card, his marriage certifcate [which gave his age,his service numbers and farm labourer as his occupation]and birth certificates of 2 children showing the change of service numbers and the fact he was a farm labourer. I don't know where he came from and thought if I worked slowly through the info I do have , that it may help me to find out more about him. As he joined the Yorks and Lancs Regiment, would that mean he was from Yorks or Lancs? I don't know enough to ask informed questions, but the website army sevice numbers say that the 294.. numbers were for the 3rd Reserve or the 16th Transport in July/August 1916, this site also says that these two didn't serve abroad. If this is true, as his medals were awarded with the R.E., I could use the change of numbers on the birth certicates to approximate when he went abroad. Sorry for the rambling post but I am learning in small steps!! A visit to the N/A is out of the question at the moment due to distance.

Thanks

Molly

[dfaulder]

Molly,

You are correct they (or at least the 3rd) did not serve abroad; the 3rd spent much of its time as part of the Tyne Garrison.

York and Lancs refers to recruiting from areas owned by the Duchies of York and Lancaster which were almost entirely within what is now known as South Yorkshire. My guess is that he would have come from that area.

(If you scroll back to your first message you should see a button labelled Edit; it might be worth using this to add "Royal Engineers" to the title of this thread, so as to attract Royal Engineers experts)

HTH

David

[m.campbell]

Molly,

You are correct they (or at least the 3rd) did not serve abroad; the 3rd spent much of its time as part of the Tyne Garrison.

York and Lancs refers to recruiting from areas owned by the Duchies of York and Lancaster which were almost entirely within what is now known as South Yorkshire. My guess is that he would have come from that area.

(If you scroll back to your first message you should see a button labelled Edit; it might be worth using this to add "Royal Engineers" to the title of this thread, so as to attract Royal Engineers experts)

HTH

David

[m.campbell]

Thanks David, more useful info gratefully received. In approx Dec 1917 he was at home [childs birth cert], so did soldiers get leave once they went abroad or does it mean he was stationed back in England?

Thanks

Molly

[dfaulder]

Molly,

Leave did happen - but it was spasmodic. I can see from my Grandmother's scrapbook that my Grandfather had leave exactly nine months before my father was born (which is kind of reassuring!).

However, without details of his service we cannot rule out that he was not home recovering from wounds (or transfer).

With regard to knowing where he came from; if you post the names of his wife (and their dates of birth if known), someone may try and find the couple in the 1911 Census - which would indicate where they were born. (If they were married by 1911 - any early children would also show on the census). His marriage certificate (if you know the date) would also yield details of parents (which would help to find him in earlier census records). Alternatively if you have his death certificate (or even date and approximate place of death), you could get his date of birth and coupled with any second names, it might be possible to identify a specific birth registration record.

Details of Birth Marriage and Death registrations can be found (free) on http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl (the transcription upto 1918 is almost complete) and then you can go to http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ to order certificates (NB Prices go up on 5th April).

HTH

David

[Brigantian]

Molly

A long-term project (obsession) of mine is the compilation of an enlistment database for the Sheffield City Battalion (12th (Service) Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment).

I do not have any specific information on your grandfather, but based on other York and Lancaster men with similar service numbers, I suspect that he enlisted in the Regiment at Sheffield on the 10th or 11th December 1915 under the Derby Scheme and was immediately posted to the Army Reserve. It is a strong possibility that he was mobilized between the 18th and 25th August 1916 and joined the 3rd Battalion for training.

Does your grandfather have a Sheffield, South Yorkshire or North Derbyshire connection?

It might also assist if you could post the dates of the marriage and two births along with the service numbers shown on each respective certificate.

Regards

Mark

[m.campbell]

Hi

The 1911 census is no help as the marriage and birth of his children occurred after 1911. Marriage cert only gives local address. I do not know where he was born so can't look up under fathers name.

I have his medal card, numbers as above. birth of his son in dec 1916 quotes Private no 29415 Yorks and Lancs Regiment[farm labourer]

Birth of his daughter Aug 1918 quotes Sapper Royal Engineers [farm labourer]

Marriage took place 1921, at that time he was 33

In all my family tree there is just my dad [ww2] and my grandad Ernest who served in a war, the rest were exempted [miners and steel workers] so I am very interested in what he did.

Hope this helps

Molly

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there Molly, there is one decent clue there for you the mention of coal mining and steel workers, they where good South Yorkshire industries.

Was the marriage address a South Yorkshire one.

Ernest might have had some form of special skill that took him from the Yorks & lancs to the Royal Engineers.

Have you tried the Regimental Museum at Rotherham to see if they hold any information on transfers from the Y&L's to other units.

The other possibility is that at a point in time the RE's where short handed and men from other regiments where transferred to make the numbers up.

Cheers Roger.

[dfaulder]

Hi

The 1911 census is no help as the marriage and birth of his children occurred after 1911. Marriage cert only gives local address. I do not know where he was born so can't look up under fathers name.

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Marriage took place 1921, at that time he was 33

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Hope this helps

Molly

Molly,

Presumably:

Ernest Chapman m Ruth R Smith Q4 1921 Barnsley Registration District Vol 9c Page 617?

Does the marriage certificate give any details of the father's name or profession (even if deceased)? Are the witnesses likely to be brothers/sisters? With a family group even if only Ernest Chapman b ~1888 father: xxxx it is possible to look for them in the 1891/1901 and possibly 1901 census. Once you have found the family in a late census you can often go back to the 1851 or 1841 census and discover another couple of generations.

(For instance there are 5 Ernest Chapmans b in Yorkshire in 1888 +/- 1yr in the 1891 census; knowing parental details could either narrow this down - or exclude them!)

You can look at Census details at your local library - most have access to Ancestry's Library edition.

HTH

David

[m.campbell]

Thank you for your replies, that was the correct marriage with fathers name as Thomas, farmer. This isn't a lot of use without his place of birth, there are a lot of Ernest Chapmans, father Thomas in the cen

sus!!!. I will try the museum at Rotherham. I will work on the assumption he enlisted in South Yorkshire, but for now it looks as if its a brick wall, which is a shame as I have so much info on my granny..Thank you all for your info and patience, I didn't realise how big a question I was asking!!

Thanks again

Molly