Memorial Plaques - Design Competition

[9th Black Watch]

I spent most of this afternoon looking through copies of the Dundee Advertiser from 1918. The edition from Thursday, 28 March, featured two prize winning designs for the memorial plaque.

These were the work of Sapper G. D. Macdougald and Mr. Charles Wheeler - both of whom received £50.

The first was of a female figure with crosses in the distance. The second was a kneeling weeping figure surrounded by crosses (graves?). On the first the name 'John Smith' was (engraved?) at the bottom of the plaque. The wording around the edge 'He Died ...' was the same as that which appeared on the chosen design.

I'm sure I've seen another thread discussing this subject but can't seem to find it. Considering the interest in plaques it struck me that these would be of interest to other members of the forum.

I'll try and obtain a scan and post it in the next week or so.

If anyone is familar with these they could perhaps could shed some more light on the subject.

Best wishes,

Derek

[Guest Pete Wood]

Derek, I would be most grateful if you would post the article - and send me a high resolution scan of this article.

It appears your paper has homed in on the Scottish entries, which were the runner-up prize winners in the Memorial Plaque competition.

Of the 500 entries, seven were awarded prizes. Every competitor was allowed to enter two designs - and Wheeler The cross in the background - and John Smith written on the plaque - won two prizes, giving him a £100 award.

MacDougald won £50 for his entry; the weeping figure.

The competition was won, as many people know, by Edward Carter-Preston. All the plaques had to carry the wording "He died for freedom and honour" and allow space for the name of the fallen serviceman.

The sculptor Charles Wheeler specialised in portraiture and architectural sculpture. There are many works by him in London, dating from the 1930s through to several only placed in 1975, the year after his death. From the 1930s are his figures for the Bank of England, including those on the front, and the figure of Ariel on the dome at the corner of Princes Street and Lothbury Street. The gilded Springbok on South Africa House also dates from this period (1934). His most familiar work is the western fountain figures (1948) in Trafalgar Square (the eastern ones are by William McMillan), and the portrait sculpture of Jellicoe in the Square is also by him. In the 1950s he produced the monumental figures Earth and Water on the modern MOD building in Horseguards Avenue, and in George Square off Lombard Street is his Poseidon group of 1969. In the same square is his Hercules and the Lion (1970s), and in Lombard Street itself is his St George and the Dragon. A Mary of Nazareth, also put up in 1975, is in St James Piccadilly. Wheeler became RA in 1940, and held the office of President from 1956-1966. He died in 1974

George Duncan MacDougald is relatively unknown. He exhibited in Glasgow just before the war, and in the 1920s. It is rumoured that he was commissioned, by King George V, to produce a figure riding a horse. He was Scottish, and served in the London Scottish, then in the Royal Engineers – in the camouflage section. His studios were mainly in North London. He died in 1942. There are works by him in the National Gallery and also in the Savoy hotel. I have recently made contact with his son, a WW2 veteran. Sadly his son barely knew him, so I am having some difficulty piecing together his story.

[Guest Pete Wood]

These are the other runner-up entries....

[9th Black Watch]

No problem. I'll be back in Dundee in the next week or so.

I'll try my best to obtain a scan of the article. The library is sometimes a little funny about scanning newspapers but I'll see what I can do.

Thanks for the information. It's a subject I hadn't really considered before. Next time I'm looking through the Fife local press I'll look for any other relevant material.

All the best,

Derek

[PhilB]

RT:- I have read that there was criticism of the winning plaque design because the lion is not proportional to the human in size - more like a big dog. Have you come across this? Phil B

[303man]

Whilst you are on the designs look at the other medals Carter Preston designed Queens Korea, Africa GSM, the 39 -45 War medal, then compare with a plaque all pretty samey, Then compare a plaque to the Queens South Africa Medal you will then see that ECrp design was not that awe inspiring.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Paul, you are correct. Many of Carter-Preston's designs featured the lion, dolphins, oak leaves, eagles etc.

The Greek influence is also apparent; but then, EVERYONE has long been influenced by Greek/Roman figures in the numastic/medal world.

Carter-Preston was heavily influenced by Hill, keeper of the coins and medal department. Hill, in turn, was revered by the Mint. They had a winning formula which kept them all comfortable for three decades.....

Phil, the comparison to the lion and the dog was made by the treasurer of Bristol (Clifton) zoo in a letter to the editor of the Times in March 1918. It upset Carter-Preston, and Hill had to send a few soothing letters to Liverpool to pacify the artist.

I am still uncovering evidence that the 'winning design' that we are all familiar with, was in fact altered (before it was shown to the public). I am in touch with Carter-Preston's daughter, who is assisting my enquiries.....

[PhilB]

I`ve been looking back over this string and find it most interesting. Despite the criticisms, which seem valid, the chosen design does look to be the best in my view. There a couple of queries, though:-

1/ The flying dolphins(?) seem to be an afterthought to indicate the Naval Services. They are already represented by Britannia, surely?

2/ What represents the Air Services?

3/ Was it compulsory to include the legend "He died ... etc? Phil B

[Guest Pete Wood]

All entries had to be worded HE DIED FOR FREEDOM AND HONOUR. I have traced the families of two of the entrants (who finished 2nd and third). Sadly their prize-winning designs have not been found, to date.

The 'flying dolphins' were, indeed, meant to represent the Naval element. The King was not impressed with the "fish" either.

The lion was meant to represent the army. Britannia was meant to represent Britain.

There was no mention of the air services as, at the time of the competition in 1917, the air services were part of the army/navy; the Royal Air Force was formed in April 1918.

[PhilB]

Thanks, RT. I`ve done a "back of a fag packet" calculation, based on 600k plaques produced, and come up with a figure of 225 tonnes of bronze used at a cost, (at today`s copper price) of about £400k. The cost of issuing Canadian style memorial crosses in nickel would presumably have been much lower. I would have said that the plaque was a means of using up copper no longer needed for shells and bullets, but the designs were from 1917. Was there a previous competition or committee decision that the award should be in the form of a bronze plaque rather than any other form? Phil B

[Clive Maier]

... Do we assume the artist knew the scale was wrong but did it that way because it just looked more artistic? Or perhaps he didn`t know? ...

I think Carter-Preston’s problem was the circular format. If Britannia is to be a little less than the plaque diameter in height, there is not sufficient width to fit in a same-scale lion standing on the same footing. It would not leave much space for the name either. Presumably a seated lion was insufficiently dynamic and a head-on one too difficult to identify.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Thanks, RT. I`ve done a "back of a fag packet" calculation, based on 600k plaques produced, and come up with a figure of 225 tonnes of bronze used at a cost, (at today`s copper price) of about £400k. The cost of issuing Canadian style memorial crosses in nickel would presumably have been much lower. I would have said that the plaque was a means of using up copper no longer needed for shells and bullets, but the designs were from 1917. Was there a previous competition or committee decision that the award should be in the form of a bronze plaque rather than any other form? Phil B

Bronze was the only material discussed. Nobody, at the time of the competition, had an idea the war was soon to end - so I think the old bullets theory, as you say, is not a sound one.

I did a fag-packet estimation that, today, it would cost around £25 per plaque in labour and materials. This does not count equipment and building space. Manning Pike had to make them for 4 shillings or less in 1919 (labour and materials only). So, using LB's figure of 40 x 20p (inflation of 40 multiplied by 4 shillings), that equals £8 per plaque. The 1919 figure, even after inflation, sounds very good value to me.

There had been previous public competitions, not in WW1, for medals. I do have a list somewhere, of what these were. I'll try to remember to dig them out.

[Guest Pete Wood]

... Do we assume the artist knew the scale was wrong but did it that way because it just looked more artistic? Or perhaps he didn`t know? ...

I think Carter-Preston’s problem was the circular format. If Britannia is to be a little less than the plaque diameter in height, there is not sufficient width to fit in a same-scale lion standing on the same footing. It would not leave much space for the name either. Presumably a seated lion was insufficiently dynamic and a head-on one too difficult to identify.

I think you are spot on, Clive. There just wasn't enough space - though ECP could have used the oblong/square format (as shown above, by Charles Wheeler) instead of round.

[PhilB]

I think it actually looked better on the Una and the Lion coin!:-

[PhilB]

I`m no artist, but I believe the fitting of the design to a circular plan has always been basic to coin design and therefore to circular plaque design. Several of the proposed designs seem to show no appreciation of this. The St George and the Dragon sovereign is a good example of how things can be accommodated. Having a vertical Britannia was problematic from the start and the dog/lion seems only to have accentuated it. But, as I said, I`m no artist! Phil B

PS Why has this post gone wide?

[Clive Maier]

... So, using LB's figure of 40 x 20p (inflation of 40 multiplied by 4 shillings), that equals £8 per plaque. ...

Where did the figure of 40 come from?

[Guest Pete Wood]

This figure of 40 is from langleybaston1418.

But, and I have nothing against LB, it is not a figure I have ever agreed with. No examples I have compared it to (cigarettes, beer, bread, average house price) have ever come close.

I believe the 'ratio' of 40 is too low and should be more like 60 (ie £1 in WW1 is equal to about £60+ today).

You can also look at http://www.eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/

[Clive Maier]

Pete,

I have used the figures given in this House of Commons research paper which covers the years 1750 to 2001. The outcome changes drastically according to which war year you use as a starting point. This is because of rapid inflation during the war. According to this source, the 1914 multiplier (to 2001) is 65.6, while the 1919 multiplier is only 29.3.

Was Manning Pike struggling with a fixed price at a time of rapid inflation?

[Guest Pete Wood]

Was Manning Pike struggling with a fixed price at a time of rapid inflation?

Not struggling, as such. He had to make an agreed number per month to achieve a bonus, and an additional part of this bonus was related to how much he had saved from the estimated price of producing the plaques.

Because he didn't the production targets, the unit price was not strictly an issue.

However, Manning Pike was citicised for spending so much time and money on 'experimenation.'

The output quota was quickly achieved at Woolwich (at the expense of quality, in my opinion), but Pike had a new contract, at the Arsenal, and so did not qualify for any bonus.....