Kings Liverpool Irish 1/8th Lt JE Fenn

[shaun_gillespie]

I am researching the best I can about my Gt Uncle Lieutenant John Edmund Fenn 305523, he was in the 1/8 Kings Liverpool. After many years I am eventually going to visit his grave and pay my respects at Festubert.

What I do know about him is that he started as a Private, and then made 2nd Lieutenant in 1917 and that year was awarded the Military Cross which I have proudly displayed at home. He died on the 9th April 1918. I have seen the citation in the London Gazette, although I have a memory that my Grandmother had a cutting (now lost I assume) saying exactly where and how he recieved his gallantry award. He was made a temporary Lieutenant in March 1918 amd died less than a month later.

I would like to visit where he died as I know it would not be Festubert, and also anywhere else significant to him.

Can anyone help me? We go on the 6th April.

Thanks

Shaun Gillespie

[daggers]

Shaun

I have put an answer on your other 'King's' post.

D

[sotonmate]

Shaun

There seems to be an Officers Service Record in WO339/136220 for a J FENN,likely to be later in the War,and they often didn't show all initials or rank at that stage. As it is the only record for that surname it is probably his. It is not an online document however,you have to read it in situ at Kew.

Sotonmate

[shaun_gillespie]

Many thanks sotonmate! Cant believe my luck at how helpful people are on here!

[sotonmate]

Shaun

You could also get to read the Bn War Diary, at Kew under WO95/2983 and runs from Feb 1918. It will likely name your man and where he was killed. It doesn't seem to be a digital copy so again probably has to be read at Kew.

Sotonmate

[Ian Riley]

Shaun,

I agree with sotonmate that the War Diary of the 1/8th KLR for the relevant period is at WO95/2983. However, it is my personal opinion that 2Lt JE Fenn is unlikely (I certainly could not be certain) to be with the 1/8 KLR in 57th Division in April 1918. He joined the 1/8 KLR when it was with the 55th (West Lancashire) Division as a reinforcement on 15 December 1917 with about a dozen other subalterns. The battalion was effectively disbanded according to the diary at short notice (as happened throughout the BEF when most brigades were reduced from four battalions to three) at the end of January 1918. The first intimation received by the battalion was 29 January 1918 and men were on the move the next day. Specifically

30 January 1918 'The majority of men leave for other units'

31 January 1918 'The remainder of the battalion, 12 officers and 200 men, leave ... to join the 2/8th Battalion with the 57th Division'

Even at low strength, 200 men is definitely a minority of the battalion; 12 officers may actually be a greater proportion of the officers with the battalion (one would need to look at the 55th Divisional AQ diary possibly or the 164 Brigade Diary to get the actual strengths as I can't spot them in the typescript diary at National Museums Liverpool). The 57th (Second West Lancashire) Division was some way from the 55th Division (apparently some four and a half hours by motor 'bus). It is my understanding that the 2/8th then took on the title of the 1/8th KLR.

It is certainly possible that Fenn went to the 57th Division but his death (killed in action) on 9 April 1918 and his burial at Brown's Road near Festubert on the same day of the beginning of the desperate battle fought by the 55th Division in the area of Festubert and Givenchy seems to me to point to the fact that he must have been one of those detached from to 1/8 KLR to go to one of the other battalions of the 55th Division. Those holding the Village Line between Festubert and Givenchy were those of 165 Infantry Brigade (1/5 KLR, 1/6 KLR and 1/7 KLR). The 1/10 KLR (Liverpool Scottish) of 166 Infantry Brigade appears to be in support; he does not appear to have been killed with 1/10 KLR. The 1/5 KLR diary does not appear to list officer casualties and my copy of the 1/6 KLR diary for April 1918 downloaded from the National Archive seems to run only from 11 April. However, an account from the Regimental History by Everard Wyrall can be found on the brand new website quick click here . He could equally well have been with other battalions of the 55th Division belonging the the King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment), the South Lancashire Regiment or the Loyal North Lancs (or even 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers). I am afraid that I have not got time to check other battalion diaries (I do not have the lot) just at the moment.

In my opinion, he is will be buried pretty near to where he was most likely to be killed on 9 April 1918, Festubert or Givenchy. However, looking at the CWGC site, the Brown's Road Cemetery burials for 9 April 1918 casualties would appear to be post-war concentration burials from other cemeteries in the immediate area.

The most concise reading for this battle is JO Coop's Story of the 55th (West Lancashire) Division which has some good coloured maps of the area. It is available in reprint (probably with black and white maps) by Naval and Military Press. Purchasing Holt's Guide to the Western Front North gives a pretty good tour of the area of Festubert/Givenchy. Givenchy is the site of the 55th Division Memorial and the modern replacement for the original postr-war village hall funded by Liverpool (stone on the apex of the gable end facing the road records this.

If he was with the 1/8th KLR prior to being commissioned, you may find it worth your while to go the the Maritime Museum att eh Albert Dock in Liverpool (this is what Daggers may have posted about) which contains the '55th Division Period' diary for 1/8 KLR. Opening times at the reading room are restricted and should be checked.

Bed calls. PM me if in need or cntact through this quick click link

Ian

[shaun_gillespie]

Thanks Ian, I have sent you a PM reply to your email address. I now believe Uncle Jack was transferred to the 164th Trench Mortar Battery on 10/9/1917. So the search continues re where he was on 9/4/1918

I really cannot get over the incredible support people give on this site.

Thankyou

Shaun

[Ian Riley]

Visiting the Maritime Museum Reading Room to see the typescript 1/8 KLR diary would certainly give you some idea of where the battalion went given given the time bracket that Promenade has provided for you. I notice that the entry for 15 December 1917 (see my other post on your own thread) in the typescript diary is actually for a JB Fenn and not JE Fenn. My thought would be that this is a typo or a misread (there are certainly a few in the diary and at some points there are notes to say that the original had been illegible so transposing B for E is easy) He could well have returned to the battalion but ...

Joe's suggestion that he was with 164 Trench Mortar Battery is possible (and you now seem to have a date for posting), which again would put him him into the battle at Givenchy/Festubert - 164 Brigade was more round Givenchy from memory. I have posted this there also as being relevant to your thread give that this one is concerned with general issues of the excellent start to the KLR website.

164 Trench Mortar Battery was part of 55th Division (in fact part of 164 Infantry Brigade). However, the citation for the MC does not match the profile for having been gained in a Trench Mortar Battery as it refers to 'leading his platoon' and to 'bringing his battalion out of action. The implication is that in late 1917, he would appear to be serving with an infantry battalion (presumably 1/8 KLR, also part of 164 Brigade) rather than a trench mortar battery.

Ian

Edited postcript: There is a medal index card for a Corporal James B Fenn 56057 commisioned in September 1917. It might be worth finding into what regiment this man was gazetted- it could be the man mentioned in the 1/8 KLR diary and thus not a typo for your JE Fenn. However, that does not take from my point that the MC citation (which is for your man) does not fit the profile of a man serving with a trench mortar battery at the time of winning the decoration.

Edited 18 March , 2010 by Ian Riley

[Ian Riley]

Thanks Ian, I have sent you a PM reply to your email address. I now believe Uncle Jack was transferred to the 164th Trench Mortar Battery on 10/9/1917. So the search continues re where he was on 9/4/1918

I really cannot get over the incredible support people give on this site.

Thankyou

Shaun

Shaun,

My money is on somewhere in the 55th Division area and thus within a space only a few miles across! Brown's Road Cemetery is fairly central to it. The battlefield is quite small.

Might be worth identifying the actions that your uncle's gazette date refers. It is rather late (as in 2 am) and I have just realised that he might be transferring to 164 TMB after the action in which he won his MC (which might be Pilckem Ridge 31 July/1 August 1917). I'll look at the War Diary again tomorrow.

Ian

[shaun_gillespie]

Hi Ian

Thanks again. The latest info I have now with thanks to "Promenade" is that JE Fenn was awarded the MC for action at Schuler FArm on 1st August 1917. There is a two page report written by him on the action! I really cant believe how this is all coming together and cannot thank Joe enough, as well as yourself for taking time out to reply! On 10/9/17 Uncle Jack was transferred to 164th Brigade Trench Mortar Battery and remained with them till he died on 9/4/18.

So as a novice I dont know how difficult it will be to pinpont where and how he died.

Any more info or advice you could give is really appreciated

Shaun

[Michael O'Neil]

Hi Shaun - thought I'd pass this on given I've done this exercise for another soldier recently and still had my notes.

305487 joined 8th August 1914

305643 joined 17th September 1914

So, 305523 will have joined between 8th August 1914 and 17th September 1914

Suggestion came from another member who said if you've got ancestry.com access, you can put in the wildcard 305* and Liverpool when searching through service records and get a pretty accurate idea of signing up date by this method. This is of course if who you are looking for isn't listed themself.

[KevinBattle]

This is his CWGC entry:-

Name: FENN, JOHN EDMUND

Initials: J E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: The King's (Liverpool Regiment)

Unit Text: 1st/8th Bn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 09/04/1918

Awards: M C

Additional information: Son of Mrs. Annie Fenn, of 23, Jubilee Drive, Liverpool.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. C. 12.

Cemetery: BROWN'S ROAD MILITARY CEMETERY, FESTUBERT

If you intend to visit, the CWGC information is as folows:-

Location Information: Festubert is a village 8 kilometres east-north-east of Bethune. From the church in Festubert, take the D166 signposted Cuinchy. After 300 metres turn right. Brown's Road Military Cemetery will be found a further 300 metres along this road on the right hand side.

Historical

Information: Festubert was occupied by Commonwealth forces in October 1914 and on 23-24 November, the Indian Corps repulsed a German attack. The Battle of Festubert (15-25 May 1915) resulted in a short advance which left the village somewhat less exposed than it had been. Except for an advance which was attempted just to the south of Festubert (the Second Action of Givenchy, 15-16 June 1915), this sector remained quiet until 9 April 1918 and the beginning of the Battle of the Lys. Festubert was held by the 55th (West Lancashire) Division against the German assault, and successive attacks lasting through the month were repelled by the 1st and other Divisions. It remained an outpost for Commonwealth forces until the final advance began in September 1918. The cemetery was begun in October 1914, and carried on by fighting units and field ambulances until November 1917, when it contained 299 graves. It was greatly enlarged after the Armistice when graves were brought in from small cemeteries and isolated sites on the surrounding battlefields.

I believe there is a thread regarding SatNav CWGC locations elsewhere on the Forum, to help even more!

[shaun_gillespie]

Many thanks for all my replies so far....Lots to see when I go over.

Thanks to "Promenade" I now know a fair bit, I like to think if its available on the net then I have found it, but you never know. Anyhow, this is the extra info I now have on Uncle Jack, so if anyone can add to this it would be really appreciated. ie would photos have ever been taken? Where were the 164th Trench Mortar Battery on 9th April when he died? etc

15/4/1917 Uncle Jack was sent on a Stokes Mortar Course at Wieltje

23/4/1917 Uncle Jack returned fromt the Stokes Mortar Course

1/8/1917 Uncle Jack established a front line to Wielje

3/8/1917 Uncle Jack took command of B Company

11/8/1917 Uncle Jack took command of C Company

18/8/1917 Uncle Jack was transferred back to B Company

27/8/1917 Recieved his MC in a Line Up. This would have been a ribbon rather than the actual medal

10/9/1917 Uncle Jack was transferred to 164th Brigade Trench Mortar Battery

Thanks for the help so far

Shaun