Can the era of this uniform be dated?

[Ethelredtwo]

Hi all,

The attached photo is supposedly of a chap in my family tree whose name was Francis Edwin Wragg, and the photo is marked "Frank" on the back, which is what he was known as within the family.

I know for a fact that he was born in 1911 so he could not have served in the Great War, so am assuming (and I am not particularly keen on making assumptions when it comes to family history), that he joined the army once he was old enough.

My question therefore is (and I know this is a longshot):

Is there anything on the uniform, or the style of it, or the style of photo itself, which might enable me to pin down a rough date. I would also gratefully receive any suggestions about which regiment it might have been!

Best Regards

Colin

[tony paley]

Colin,

Almost certainly Royal Artillery prior to WW2, Grenade collar badges plus white lanyard. This style of uniform was worn by regular soldiers up until 1939. I have photographs of my father, who was also a gunner, wearing this style even in 1940. He is a Bombadier (Corporal) so if my maths are correct he could have enlisted in 1929 to get to Bdr. would take probably 2 - 3 years so thisa could give you an idea of dates. Certainly not WW1.

Tony P

[4thGordons]

Colin,

Almost certainly Royal Artillery prior to WW2, Grenade collar badges plus white lanyard. This style of uniform was worn by regular soldiers up until 1939. I have photographs of my father, who was also a gunner, wearing this style even in 1940. He is a Bombadier (Corporal) so if my maths are correct he could have enlisted in 1929 to get to Bdr. would take probably 2 - 3 years so thisa could give you an idea of dates. Certainly not WW1.

Tony P

I agree with the above. Early 30s at a guess.

I don't recall but wasn't there a date when lanyard wear switched from left to right shoulder? This would give you a not earlier than.....

Chris

[squirrel]

IIRC the lanyard "changed shoulders" in the early 1920's.

[geraint]

Forgive my ignorance - and to put a Great War direction on this topic- what did the lanyard signify? And why change shoulders?

[squirrel]

It was issued to mounted troops for keeping the clasp knife on. Some sources state that Gunners used to keep a fuze key on it but some keys may have been a bit big for that.

Lanyards were issued to all troops after August 1914 for keeping the clasp knife on.

The wearing on the left was changed to the right after WW1, according to some sources, so that the bandolier sat better on the shoulder and didn't get caught on it.

[DrB]

Could very well be Royal Engineers as they wore the same pattern collar dogs. The only way to tell is to count the number of flames coming from the bomb, nine instead of seven as for the R.A.

Doc B

[Muerrisch]

Campbell's Dress of the RA gives 1920, 'to allow the bandolier to go over the left shoulder'.

[geraint]

Thanks folks. Seems to be a bit OTT for a clasp knife. Is there a symbolic association for the RA lanyard in that it signified the old firing mechanism for an artillery piece?

[squirrel]

That's Royal Navy IIRC.

[Blackblue]

There has long been a tale about the Gunners wearing a white lanyard for cowardice, allegedly for deserting their guns,

but the story is nothing more than a piece of leg-pulling. However, it is time to put this particular story to rest.

Lanyards came into use in the late 19th century when Field Gunners manned the 12 and 15 Pounder equipments,

ammunition for which had a fuze set with a fuze key. The key was a simple device, and every man had one, attached

to a lanyard worn around the neck. The key itself tended to be kept in the breast pocket until needed. The lanyard was

simply a piece of strong cord, but in time it was a typical soldier's reaction to turn it into something a bit more decorative.

It was smartened up with white ink or even blanco, and braided, gradually taking its present form.

Prior to the South African War, Gunners were issued with steel folding hoof picks, carried on the saddle or in the jacket.

In about 1903 these were withdrawn and replaced by jack-knives, which were carried in the left breast pocket of the

Service Dress attached to the lanyard over the left shoulder.

During the two World Wars, the lanyard could be used as an emergency firing lanyard for many of the guns, because

they had a firing mechanism which operated like a trigger. The lanyard could be attached to the trigger mechanism and

allowed the Gunner to stand clear of the gun's recoil.

The question of which shoulder bore the lanyard depends on the date. There is no certainty about this, but the change

from the left shoulder to the right probable took place at about the time of the Great War, when the bandolier was

introduced, because it was worn over the left shoulder. But there are some who insist that 1924 was the date of change,

when the sloping of rifles over the left shoulder would soil the white lanyard.

Eventually, in 1933, the end of the lanyard was simply tucked into the breast pocket without the jack-knife, though

many will remember that it was often kept in place with the soldier's pay-book! On the demise of Battledress, the

lanyard disappeared for a short time, but returned as part of the dress of the Royal Regiment of Artillery in 1973.

For those still plagued by jokers, the simplest answer to any leg-pulling is to invite the joker to produce evidence:

no change can take place to any of the Army's dress regulations without an appropriate order,

and since no such evidence exists, the joker's story falls flat on its face.

. One might even ask why other arms and corps wear lanyards -

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!!!

(Info. From 36 Regt RA - Keith Holderness Website)

Rgds

Tim

[Angrybudgie]

I'm not much good at uniforms and badges yet, but that moustache absolutely screams 1920's and 1930's.......it wasn't just the little bloke who had one....they were quite fashionable I understand...

Elizabeth

[geraint]

Good reply Tim.