36th (Ulster) Division Query

[johnsammc]

Hi all,

Could someone this query please.A friend has a photo of Pte Billy McFadzean VC and the red hand is the left hand.I also seen this in a bar recently.I was under the impression it was the right hand.

Anyone help

John

[ulsterlad2]

I've no idea John.

On the LLT it's the left hand. http://www.1914-1918.net/36div.htm

Now, if I chose to cut off one of my own hands in order to be the first to touch a bit of land

in a race so that I could claim it, I'd cut my left hand off too as I am right handed.

[johnsammc]

I've no idea John.

On the LLT it's the left hand. http://www.1914-1918.net/36div.htm

Now, if I chose to cut off one of my own hands in order to be the first to touch a bit of land

in a race so that I could claim it, I'd cut my left hand off too as I am right handed.

I was convinced it was always the right hand for Ulster but thats 3 differnet places ive seen it.Im just wondering if theres a reason for this.Having met many Ulstermen its always been the right.Confused

[squirrel]

The Ulster GAA have the right hand but with the thumb open- according to some sites I googled, the left hand version is apparentlya clan or family variation. Be interesting if anybody has a definitive answer.

[centurion]

I've no idea John.

On the LLT it's the left hand. http://www.1914-1918.net/36div.htm

Now, if I chose to cut off one of my own hands in order to be the first to touch a bit of land

in a race so that I could claim it, I'd cut my left hand off too as I am right handed.

And you could throw it further as well

My relatives from Omagh always held it to be the left hand

[Desmond7]

On Payer's Cigs cards it is the left hand;on the div sign painted on side of 110 Field Ambulance vehicle it is the right hand!

[David McCallion]

The irish volunteer badge i have on display guys is a left hand

which dates to 1913

and I remember as a lad my dad had a hand sewn ulster flag

which was old with a left hand on it

and as Des says players card is left hand

interesting one

must check with the rifles museum the have an original patch and i think a pair of officers collars

would like to see if they go the same way or like officers rifles collars one each way

[kildaremark]

Maybe it depends on which foot you kick with....!

(You need to be from Ireland to get this!!)

Mark

[dundeesown]

Well I`m a left footer and I`m fae Dundee and get it.But I think it`s the right hand.

Gary

[dundeesown]

http://www.baronetage.org/redhand.htm.

I just can`t get the hang of inserting another web page,sorry.O I done it

Gary

[Nigel Marshall]

Here's the Players card that Des mentioned. Not the best photo, but still clearly the left hand.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Nigel Marshall]

The arms of County Antrim.

Right hand.

[Nigel Marshall]

The Arms of County Derry/Londonderry.

Right Hand

[Nigel Marshall]

The Arms of County Tyrone.

Right Hand.

Of all the Ulster Counties, the ones shown above are the only ones to depict the red hand in their arms.

Cheers,

Nigel

[johnsammc]

I`ve always thought since i`ve been young the Red Hand (representing Ulster)was the right hand.As i said previously i wasn`t sure what (if any) significance the left hand has or had. If its a religious thing then i`m lost as Tyrone,Cavan and Monaghan have it as the right hand on their GAA crests.

Genuinely confused. Im sure someone will know

[Nigel Marshall]

All the variants of the modern Northern Ireland flag that I can get on a google search have the left hand............

[ulsterlad2]

All the variants of the modern Northern Ireland flag that I can get on a google search have the left hand............

There must be the same flags but with different hands out there. I was about to say that the Ulster Division hand symbol is the only place I've seen the left hand used. Any Northern Ireland Flag (aka Ulster Banner) that I've seen has a right hand, the Provincial Ulster flag (Yellow one) has a right hand, so does Tyrone GAA and, as above, the county shields.

A the end of the day, I'll paraphrase the great Michael Jackson:

It don't matter if your left or right, eh, eh, eh.

[rob elliott]

Hi,

The link by Dundeesown is the closest.

Right hand is of the 'O'Neills' and of the legend, and the left hand is as decreed by James I on 22nd May 1611, instituting the order of baronets.

So on Ulster flags it should be left hand, however i think there is no fixed rule as used by the Unionist community as the UVF used the right hand on their badges and as stated the GAA use right as well.

As this is only one legend to the origins of the 'red hand', others [non Ulster] being religious, refering to the right hand of god, it cannot be definitive.

One point about the Dundeestown link, is that the chieftan is called Heremon O'Neill [ui Neill].

It was Heremon, third son of Milesius, who became their first O'Neill king of Ireland and from this subsaquent claims.

Milesius was from Spain ????

Rob

[corisande]

There is a page on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hand_of_Ulster

It is also the badge of baronets other than those of Scotland or Nova Scotia. In the flags, the red hand is a right hand; for baronets and the Irish Society, it is a left hand.

"The Red Hand of Ulster's a paradox quite,

To Baronets 'tis said to belong;

If they use the left hand, they're sure to be right,

And to use the right hand would be wrong.

For the Province, a different custom applies,

And just the reverse is the rule;

If you use the right hand you'll be right, safe and wise,

If you use the left hand you're a fool."

[Tyrim]

Could it be that they didn't want the left hand to know what the right hand was doing?

[BrendanLee]

In the legend the first man to swim across the sea and touch Ireland wins Ireland it is the left hand that is cut off and thrown but this legend has its origins in the 17^th centaury which was long after the Red hand was first used. Although it only adds to the confusion the coat of arms of Hugh O'Neill 2^nd Earl of Tyrone uses the left hand while the coats of arms of the O'Neill's of Tyrone who calmed the title 'The O'Neill' uses the right hand and the O'Neills of Clanaboy also use the right hand.