no records? (and one who was made to leave for lying about his age)

[tjphillips]

Hello All

I've just posted this in Units but realise this might be a more appropriate subforum;

I'm just starting out and quickly seem to have reached a dead end. My Great Uncles and Great Grandfather were all in the Royal Scots. I have only been able to find one record - the Medal Rolls Card for GtUncle William Macdonald which shows him to have been a Lance Corporal and then a Corporal No. 23223 in 12th battalion Royal Scots entering France 2nd October 1916. I haven't been able to find any further records (? lost in the London bombing?) and no sign of his or his brother's deaths. Should I be looking somewhere specific as I understand they were both killed? Could Will have changed from Royal Scots without it showing on his medal card?

Andrew was in the rifle brigade in Hampshire in the 1911 census. Does this have any bearing on where I may find his records?

Finally, their father lied about his age (he was born 1868) and when this was discovered he was returned home. Might I find records for him?

I would be very grateful for any help anyone could provide.

Best wishes

Tania

Attached image(s)

[ulsterlad2]

Hi Tania.

Are you sure that the medal card you have is your uncle? Other William Macdonalds were killed while with the Royal Scots. May be he is one of them.

Can you post any more details? Their parents names, where born / lived etc?

[tjphillips]

Sorry, it was 2nd October 1915 (not 1916).

Hello

Yes it is definitely Will as my brother has one medal and the saervice number matches.

[tjphillips]

Will's parents were Andrew Marcus Macdonald (who lied about his age to join) and Annie (nee Salvage). All were born in Brighton, Andrew's father having come down there with the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders.

[ulsterlad2]

It looks as though William wasn't killed. His mic says that he was put into the Class Z reserve which wasn't authorised until December 1918.

http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm

[tjphillips]

It looks as though William wasn't killed. His mic says that he was put into the Class Z reserve which wasn't authorised until December 1918.

http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm

Thank you. Does that mean he didn't go to war?

T

[ulsterlad2]

Oh no not at all. William definitely went to the war.

btw. I have the 12th Bn war diary from may 1915 - June 1919 if you ever need any

specific day / dates looked up.

[tjphillips]

Thank you, that would be great. I clearly need to clear up the mystery of where he went after the war too! And I assume Andrew may also have survived after all, although I don't have a starting point for him yet.

I'll do some more research but may take you up on your kind offer some time.

All the best

Tania

[kenf48]

There are two medal index cards (mic) on Ancestry for an Andrew Macdonald in the original one the name is spelt McDonald and there is a note correcting the spelling on the second one. He was a Private Regimental Number 4032 in the 2nd Bn Rifle Brigade and went to France on the 7th November 1914. The original card is stamped '1914' and list his full entitlement. The second card has the same number but only lists two medals (BWM and Victory).

The Long Long Trail shows the 2nd Battalion, which would have been a Regular Battalion landed at Le Havre on the 6th November.

Seems to be the only one, but only on the balance of probability. No other record so he probably survived. Neither card has any remarks. He was awarded the 14 Star BWM and Victory Medal

As for Marcus he was probably weeded out before he went overseas so no mic or anything else on a quick scan.

Ken

[ulsterlad2]

Will's parents were Andrew Marcus Macdonald

There is a mic for an Andrew M Macdonald. Might be him?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[tjphillips]

There are two medal index cards (mic) on Ancestry for an Andrew Macdonald in the original one the name is spelt McDonald and there is a note correcting the spelling on the second one. He was a Private Regimental Number 4032 in the 2nd Bn Rifle Brigade and went to France on the 7th November 1914. The original card is stamped '1914' and list his full entitlement. The second card has the same number but only lists two medals (BWM and Victory).

The Long Long Trail shows the 2nd Battalion, which would have been a Regular Battalion landed at Le Havre on the 6th November.

Seems to be the only one, but only on the balance of probability. No other record so he probably survived. Neither card has any remarks. He was awarded the 14 Star BWM and Victory Medal

As for Marcus he was probably weeded out before he went overseas so no mic or anything else on a quick scan.

Ken

Thank you Ken. It sounds as if you believe Andrew (younger) would have stayed in the Rifle Brigade rather than join the Royal Scots like his brother. It might make more sense of my not being able to find him otherwise.

The photo is him with 2 younger brothers. Do the white armbands mean anything which might help me?

Best wishes

Tania

[tjphillips]

There is a mic for an Andrew M Macdonald. Might be him?

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

I'll check again but I think that'll be Andrew Moffat Macdonald, Captain. He keeps cropping up; quite a tease really.

[barrieduncan]

Assuming the armbands were white and blue, I think it implies he was a signaller.

Barrie

[tjphillips]

I'll check again but I think that'll be Andrew Moffat Macdonald, Captain. He keeps cropping up; quite a tease really.

Now I've looked I see he's not Andrew Moffat, but I don't think any of my family were in the Gordon Highlanders so I can't be sure without more information than I would get from a MIC - eg place of birth etc.

Thanks alot. I'll keep looking.

Tania

[tjphillips]

Assuming the armbands were white and blue, I think it implies he was a signaller.

Barrie

Thank you very much Barrie.

Tania

[barrieduncan]

Another thing with the photo showing the armbands - his buttons appear to be black rather than brass - sure sign of a Rifle Regiment.

[tjphillips]

Your detective work is very impressive and helpful. It is really good to have some understanding of these old photos and make some sense of them. I shall research the rifle brigade and signallers now.

Best wishes

Tania

[kenf48]

Thank you Ken. It sounds as if you believe Andrew (younger) would have stayed in the Rifle Brigade rather than join the Royal Scots like his brother.

If. as you say, he was a Regular in April 1911 I doubt he would have had a choice where he enlisted in August 1914, he would either have been still serving or in the Reserves. Regular soldiers usually enlisted for 12 years and spent seven years 'with the colours' and five years in the Reserve. He would have still had a committment to his Regiment. It is possible he changed Regiments later but he probably had regimental loyalty

Aldershot (the 'home' of the British Army) is in Hampshire and it should be fairly easy to find out if the 2nd Bn Rifle Brigade was there in 1911. This might help confirm if the soldier I referred to above is the same one. On the information available it can at best be an educated guess. The interesting thing is there was a high casualty rate among the soldiers who went out in 1914 so it might help to identify soldiers with similar regimental numbers, or even searching soldiers listed with him in the 1911 Census e.g Harry Cardinal Rifleman 4030 was in the 2nd Bn and was kia in May 1915, was he in the same barracks as your man in 1911? No real certainty just building a picture.

Ken

[tjphillips]

If. as you say, he was a Regular in April 1911 I doubt he would have had a choice where he enlisted in August 1914, he would either have been still serving or in the Reserves. Regular soldiers usually enlisted for 12 years and spent seven years 'with the colours' and five years in the Reserve. He would have still had a committment to his Regiment. It is possible he changed Regiments later but he probably had regimental loyalty

Aldershot (the 'home' of the British Army) is in Hampshire and it should be fairly easy to find out if the 2nd Bn Rifle Brigade was there in 1911. This might help confirm if the soldier I referred to above is the same one. On the information available it can at best be an educated guess. The interesting thing is there was a high casualty rate among the soldiers who went out in 1914 so it might help to identify soldiers with similar regimental numbers, or even searching soldiers listed with him in the 1911 Census e.g Harry Cardinal Rifleman 4030 was in the 2nd Bn and was kia in May 1915, was he in the same barracks as your man in 1911? No real certainty just building a picture.

Ken

Thank you Ken. That gives me plenty to pursue. I certainly have no other photos of Andrew, certainly not in the Royal Scots uniform, unlike Will. Checking other soldiers in the census sounds an excellent idea.

By the way they were in Winchester barracks in 1911.

Tania

[tjphillips]

Thank you Ken. That gives me plenty to pursue. I certainly have no other photos of Andrew, certainly not in the Royal Scots uniform, unlike Will. Checking other soldiers in the census sounds an excellent idea. By the way they were in Winchester Barracks in 1911.

Tania

[kenf48]

Why have you particularly mentioned the 2nd Bn?

It was written on the medal card I found for 4032 MacDonald, but essentially pre-war most Regular Regiments had 2 Bns., usually one was on Home Service and the other Overseas (e.g.India or other outposts of Empire). There was then a 3rd Reserve/Training or Depot Bn which was the 'home' of the Regiment. There are books like Richard Holmes "Tommy" that give an introduction to the structure of the Army immediately before the Great War.

Ken

[tjphillips]

It was written on the medal card I found for 4032 MacDonald, but essentially pre-war most Regular Regiments had 2 Bns., usually one was on Home Service and the other Overseas (e.g.India or other outposts of Empire). There was then a 3rd Reserve/Training or Depot Bn which was the 'home' of the Regiment. There are books like Richard Holmes "Tommy" that give an introduction to the structure of the Army immediately before the Great War.

Ken

I think 4032 Macdonald is sounding very interesting. You said he was originally down as McDonald and subsequently changed to Macdonald... well Andrew's name was misspelt in barracks in 1911 (so was his place of birth - 'Kimpston' instead of 'Kemp Town').

Tania

[kenf48]

sounds positive sent u pm

Ken