The Dardanelles and Gallipoli

[vianalky]

Help required please?

At the National Memorial Arboretum today/this afternoon we, that is the Monday "Guides & Hosts" were discussing the Gallipoli memorial. Now arround the main memorial map are 9 shriveled Oaks that represent service men (Army & Navy) reaching up to be drawn out of the sea and shore by their comrades. Nine why? they represent the force who were at Gallipoli. But could not get them all! in no particular order

Great Britain,

Canada,

Australia,

New Zealand,

France,

Gurkhas,

&

Turkey

Germany

Austria/Hungary?

Anyone else know of any others?

Regards,

S&F

Alan, Host at the NMA.

[sotonmate]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

Belligerents listed.

[vianalky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

Belligerents listed.

Thanks for link to this BUT

We have used Wikipedia before and been "burnt" and did look at this this afternoon.

Would like to know if anyone has another source!

[Bryn]

Ceylon is not mentioned. The Ceylon Planters' Rifle Corps served in the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps.

[gem22]

How about the Zion mule corps, Sikhs, Punjabis, and Maoris?

Garth

[christine liava'a]

Newfoundlanders- distinct from Canadians.

"At the time of the First World War Newfoundland was a Dominion of the British Empire with a population of 240,000. Despite its relatively small population in 1914 the Government of Newfoundland recruited enough men to form a Battalion within the British Army. The island maintained a Battalion strength fighting force throughout the war. The regiment was deployed to Gallipoli via Egypt joining the 29th British Division.

[Dolphin]

Alan

Could the nine be (in alphabetical order):

Australia, England, Ceylon, India, Ireland, Newfoundland, New Zealand, Scotland and Wales? Though perhaps India and Ceylon might have been lumped together and France added to make up the number.

Gareth

[michaeldr]

Now arround the main memorial map are 9 shriveled Oaks that represent service men (Army & Navy) reaching up to be drawn out of the sea and shore by their comrades

Alan,

At the planning stage there was an idea that a native tree from each country should be planted to represent its participation in the Gallipoli campaign, however it is not clear to me if this part of the plan was followed through.

The following is from The Gallipolian (No. 105, Autumn 2004 - the journal of The Gallipoli Association). It was written by Mr Roger Pepper who laid the wreath on behalf of the association at the memorial's dedication

"The Memorial, … … was designed by Turkish architect Nadir Imamoglu, has two key elements. A large map of the Gallipoli Peninsula created by gluing small pieces of coloured glass on to a toughened glass background. Surrounding the map are nine tall oak logs, the branches, resembling outstretched arms, representing those who died at Gallipoli. The logs, between sixteen and twenty-three years of age, reflect the age range of many of the casualties of 1915. Each is linked by a spiked chain, this to emphasise the extraordinary bond between all those who served at Gallipoli. Behind is an outer circle of nine holly-oak trees representing hope and future peace. A short text briefly summarises the campaign, while panels contain the famous words by Ataturk "Those heroes who shed their blood " and words by Aspinall-Oglander from page 343 of the first volume of the Official History commencing "The grassy slopes that crown the cliffs are carpeted with flowers. The azure sky is cloudless; the air is fragrant with the scent of wild thyme. In front, beyond a smiling valley studded with cypress and olive "

If today you want to associate the 'nine' with the participating countries then I would suggest;

Great Britain, Eire, Australia, New Zealand, Canada (Newfoundland), India, Sri Lanka (Ceylon), France and Turkey.

But, as illustrated by the Pals above, there are quite a few combinations and possibilities

Regards

Michael

[vianalky]

Many thanks for the support and inputs, at moment going with the "Allied Forces = 9"

again in no particular order

Great Britain

Eire

Australia

New Zealand

India

Ceylon

Newfoundland

Nepal (Gurkhas)

France

But was India, Ceylon & Nepal 1?

Now having looked at my photo data base, i can only see 8 Shrivelled Oak or Oak logs linked.

With the Holly bushes behind (can't see there number) will have to count next Monday.

& of course continue the discussion with the team.

--------------------

Regards,

S&F

Alan

[west coast]

alan,

"eire" didn`t excist at that time as ireland as a whole was still an integral part of the empire. its a good question to solve .

cheers ,mike.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Alan

If you are going to count Eire (which did not exist at the time) you ought logically to include Pakistan, as there were two Punjabi regiments in 29 Ind Inf Bde.

And in that case, why stop at France? There were Moroccans and Senegalese there too.

I tend to favour dolphin's selection.

Ron

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for the support and inputs, at moment going with the "Allied Forces = 9"

But is it exclusively an Allied memorial?

Its designer was Turkish and it includes a quote from Ataturk

Can you explain the origin of the description "9 shriveled Oaks that represent service men (Army & Navy) reaching up to be drawn out of the sea and shore by their comrades" as I have not come across this explanation before

regards

Michael

Edited 9 March , 2010 by michaeldr

[vianalky]

Until i can get more details i'll have to hold any explanation, i cannot say if the memorial is solely "Allied forces" or not. I will endeavor to keep all interested persons in the loop.

Certainly the 9 now 8 Oaks will need revisiting.

Regards,

S&F

Alan

[Chris Martin]

When talking about Newfoundland it can not be lumped in with or refered to as Canada. Canada did not have units at Gallipoli. After Newfoundland's confederation with Canada in 1949. the Royal Newfoundland Regiment became the only regiment in the Canadian army to have the Gallipoli battle honour emblazoned on its standard. Newfoundland was a distinct nationality at Gallipoli but were officially part of the BEF, I have no idea if that affects the list of 9 nations in question, as I have not seen the memorial, though after learning about it through this discussion, I would really like to visit it.

Chris

[michaeldr]

In my earlier post when I commenced the last paragraph I should have laid more emphasis on the word 'today' and hence my allusion to the modern states of Canada, Sri Lanka and yes, Eire.

... ... ... ... ...

Alan,

Thanks for any checking which you can do on this and I look forward to hearing more.

Lest I be miss-understood once again on this, let me explain how I see the two descriptions (Alan's and Mr. Pepper's) as we have them in the above posts.

The 2004 description seems to portray a positive scene. Nine dead tree or logs representing those who perished (there is no mention of water), bound by a chain representing the "extraordinary bond between all those who served at Gallipoli." This latter thought in turn being emphasized by Ataturk's words which end with the line "They have become our sons as well!"

The 2010 description seems less positive and indeed almost negative. The nine dead trees are now exclusively army & navy, and represent the invaders struggling in the water with hands raised in a plea to their comrades for help. In this second description, what part is played by the chains?

Either, there is more to the second version than we have yet seen here, or in the passage of some six years the message has become garbled

regards

Michael

[matthew lucas]

and North African's......

in the French forces

matt

[MartinWills]

I would need to go away and check, but I seem to recall that there were Maltese Labour Corps and ? Greek Labour Corps amongst others.

The list gets longer .......

Of coure, so far we have only looked at units - individuals almost certainly come from an even wider range of nations

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Nepal was a seperate country at the time, not part of British India, which is why there are comments about the Gurkhas being mercenaries.

As the thread goes on Turkey, Germany and Austria/Hungary seem to have been dropped from the list, which seems to go against the original symbolism and Ataturk's words; as michaeldr pointed out in post #12. Is the representation supposed to be of the nations as they were in 1915 or now? If the latter there were men drown from the Ottoman Empire from countries that are now independent and I think some men were drawn from what is now Bangladesh.

[bob lembke]

My father fought at Gallipoli; there were small units of Germans and Austrians (company-sized or smaller) in the land action there, as well as advisors ind individual unit commanders.

Bob Lembke

[howardian]

In my earlier post when I commenced the last paragraph I should have laid more emphasis on the word 'today' and hence my allusion to the modern states of Canada, Sri Lanka and yes, Eire.

... ... ... ... ...

Alan,

Thanks for any checking which you can do on this and I look forward to hearing more.

Lest I be miss-understood once again on this, let me explain how I see the two descriptions (Alan's and Mr. Pepper's) as we have them in the above posts.

The 2004 description seems to portray a positive scene. Nine dead tree or logs representing those who perished (there is no mention of water), bound by a chain representing the "extraordinary bond between all those who served at Gallipoli." This latter thought in turn being emphasized by Ataturk's words which end with the line "They have become our sons as well!"

The 2010 description seems less positive and indeed almost negative. The nine dead trees are now exclusively army & navy, and represent the invaders struggling in the water with hands raised in a plea to their comrades for help. In this second description, what part is played by the chains?

Either, there is more to the second version than we have yet seen here, or in the passage of some six years the message has become garbled

regards

Michael

Just to be pedantic, my understanding is that Eire does not even exist as a country today.When I lived in the Republic in the late 60's I was told that Eire refers to the island as a whole and until the North and South are united, I had to refer to the south as the Republic of Ireland.I had the timerity to point out that the word Eire appears on the country's stamps but the reply was that the map on the stamp showed the whole of Ireland.

[bruce]

So now we appear to have

GB

Republic of Ireland

Newfoundland

Australia

New Zealand

Bangldesh

Pakistan

India

Sri Lanka

Nepal

Greece

Malta

Egypt

Germany

Turkey

Austria

Hungary

Syria

Lebanon

Israel

Jordan

France

Morocco

Tunisia

Algeria

Senegal

Maybe this is an excuse to plant more trees?

Bruce

[truthergw]

Just to be pedantic, my understanding is that Eire does not even exist as a country today.When I lived in the Republic in the late 60's I was told that Eire refers to the island as a whole and until the North and South are united, I had to refer to the south as the Republic of Ireland.I had the timerity to point out that the word Eire appears on the country's stamps but the reply was that the map on the stamp showed the whole of Ireland.

The correct name of the state is Eire or, in English, The Republic of Ireland. That is according to the constitution.

[vianalky]

I'll be back tomorrow aches permitting as "Garden" day today!!!

I have some new pictures of the garden, and there are 9 Oaks, 9 Holly bushes and the map has come back.

I'have some more info from the David Child book "Remembrance" and the two versions of the guide book and i've now got details of the "Gallipoli Association"

Regards,

S&F

Alan.