RNAS anti-aircraft unit 1915

[delta]

Grateful for advice about RNAS anti-aircraft units; were they UK based or deployed overseas

Thanks

Stephen

[Andrew Smith]

Grateful for advice about RNAS anti-aircraft units; were they UK based or deployed overseas

Thanks

Stephen

G'day Stephen,

One of the Australians I am researching Noel (Nore on his Brith cert.) Campbell Stephen was a member of the RNAS anti aircraft units in London. He was later transferred to the Aegean. I am yet to ascertain if he was still in the AA section when he was posted there.

If I find out more I will let you know.

Regards,

Andrew.

[delta]

Thanks Andrew

[horatio2]

I do not think they were RNAS. I think you may be referring to the RNVR Anti-Aircraft Corps. The men were enlisted into the RNVR and given official numbers in the range AA/1 - AA/3022. Their engagement ledgers are at the FAA Musuem.

[delta]

Thanks Horatio 2

[per ardua per mare per terram]

There was also the Royal Marine Artillery Anti Aircraft Unit.

[delta]

My interest is in Harold Mortimore.

He was serving with the RN Div overseas then back to the Depot August the commissioned RNAS 18 Sep 1915 in the UK

Would the RM unit have been an optionm after Oct 1915.

Stephen

[horatio2]

To bottom this out you will need to get his records of service. There are several obtainable for him:-

His RND record as a Writer 2/3 Class is on line at Kew.

His RNAS record as an officer is at Kew but not on-line.

His RAF record as an officer in on-line at Kew

All three of these records (the RND records are the original cards) are also held at the Fleet Air Arm Museum and, in addition, they have his RNVR enrolment ledger and they may have further material in their RNAS biographical and appointing archive.

I think it unlikely (but not impossible) that he served with the RMA AA Brigade.

[delta]

thanks fir the guidance

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The RMA AA Brigade drew on naval ratings for skills not usually in the remit of the Royal Marines, such as armourers. A Writer may have come into that catagory. Blumberg is unforthcoming on the details of the Brigade's headquarters establishment.

[Andrew Smith]

I do not think they were RNAS. I think you may be referring to the RNVR Anti-Aircraft Corps. The men were enlisted into the RNVR and given official numbers in the range AA/1 - AA/3022. Their engagement ledgers are at the FAA Musuem.

After a bit of digging I have come across several references to the RNAS Anti Aircraft Corps, I have even found an insignia for them at this website;

RAF Ring

I will keep digging,

Andrew

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Wish you joy of your detective work Andrew. The problem is that our most authoritive source (the RNAS card index) has been weeded, so there are only fragmentary clues in other sources.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Now the catalogue is more co operative: RND Name Mortimore, Harold William

Service Number(s): Z/44

Rank or Rating: 3rd Writer, 2nd Writer

Date of Birth: 12 September 1891

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=2

ADM 273/7/99 Page 99: Harold William Mortimore. RNAS Officers Service

ADM 273/30 Page 146: Harold William Mortimore. RNAS Officers Service

RAF Name Mortimore, Harold William

Date 12 September 1891

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=4

[delta]

Sorry I missed your post - I had the OR info but not the officer's.

You're a star

Stephen

[horatio2]

I have looked a bit more deeply into the AA Corps. Formed in October 1914, it was an RNVR unit ("RNVR Anti-Aircraft Corps") and the men were all given RNVR AA official numbers (1 - 3022).

Its main area of operations was in the AA defence of UK but there were some "Foreign Service Sections" used at RNAS Dunkirk and RNAS Rinxent in France and also in the Aegean on the islands of Imbros, Lemnos and Thasos. They also embarked as an AA unit in HM Ships carrying kite balloons serving in the Dardanelles, East Coast of Africa, North Sea and English Channel. In 1916 all the RNVR officers and men abroad with these units were transferred to the RNAS books for pay. [source - "The Naval Air Service 1908-1918".]

Noel Stephen (Post #2) was one such man. He enlisted in the RNVR AA Corps as AA.794 and was transferred to RNAS as F.24348 in November 1916 (and subsequently to the RAF as 224348 in April 1918). His RNAS service was in the eastern Mediterranean.

Harold Mortimore (Post #7) had nothing to do with the AA Corps. He served as RNVR Writer (London Z/44) to the (mainly RMA-manned) Motor Transport Unit sent to France with the RND in October 1914, where he qualified for the 1914 Star. He remained in France with this unit when the RND went out to Gallipoli. His career as a commissioned naval aviator was short-lived (7 months). He was invariably ill after only 20 minutes airborne and was deemed incapable of being trained. His commission was terminated. He never went abroad.

There was never a formed unit called the RNAS Anti-Aircraft Corps. The "RNAS AA Corps" badge (Post #11) was, I believe, used to identify RNVR AA Corps men who transferred to the RNAS, i.e. it was used as a branch/trade identifier not as a Corps badge.

[delta]

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

Thanks for the details of Harold Mortimore; fascinating detail. His commission was terminated as he was "claimed" by the Adjt of the RN Div Tpt Unit; Major Frank Summers who commanded D Coy Heavy Section MGC. Mortimore was to command the first tank to go into action, near Delville Wood, on 15th September 1916.

Stephen

[Rockdoc]

I'm not sure if this is related but it could be. 95th Anti-Aircraft Section moved to the Struma Front in May 1918 and ended the War at Kato Kreusoves and Tasli, both between Stavros and the mouth of the Struma. From these sites they could see towards Stavros and report that enemy planes were being "engaged by Navy", as you'd expect. I initially thought this meant the planes were fired on by ships in the harbour but some entries in the Diary mention a 3-inch gun. That would be the 3-in, 20-cwt AA gun, a type not used by the British Army in Salonika so presumably being operated by Naval personnel.

The Diary mentions an incident where HMS Endymion was attacked by a U-boat and I found a free download amongst the Cabinet Papers at Kew that records the event. The signal originated at Mudros so it's possible that Naval operations were controlled from there, rather than in mainland Greece.

Keith

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The 3 inch gun had been a mainstay of naval anti aircraft defences since before the war and was available in comparative abundance. As it was also a gun fitted to many ships in the navy (on standard mounts) such guns could be taken from the stores at Alexandria or Malta; or in extremis unshipped from their standard mounts and fitted into high angle mounts.

As far as I know naval operations in the Eastern Mediterranean were controlled from the islands and HMS Endymion was one of the squadron flagships.

[Rockdoc]

The 3-in gun was undoubtedly a fine design but its weight made it difficult to use on lorry-mountings. The AA Sections, even using the lighter types, often report problems with broken driving-chains and drive-shafts when trying to move position along what amounted to goat tracks in Salonika and the lorries bogged down at the first opportunity. The extra weight - all high up, of course - meant that their use on the Western Front was mostly in rear areas.

I can't decide from 95th AAS' Diary whether there was one 3-in gun or several at Stavros. The Diary does make a distinction between the 3-in Gun and The Navy but, as no British Army Section used them in Macedonia, I'm guessing that the distinction is purely between land-mounted and ship-mounted guns rather than who did the firing.

There were several monitors stationed at Stavros and one, HMS Abercrombie, was also damaged in the U-boat attack. The Diary records the monitors attacking the submarine and also a plane spotting for them while they bombarded somewhere unspecified nearby - presumably the enemy-held coast just across the Gulf of Orfano.

Can you suggest where to look for information on the defences at Stavros? Putting Stavros into TNA's search engine doesn't bring up anything useful. Do I need to start with Mudros or Imbros and delve from there?

Keith

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I know little about Stavros and only slighlty more about the Aegean at this time. I did some research about the Auxilliary Patrol in the area a few years ago and went through some of the reports, which I remember referred to Salonika. The records below may be of interest. The AA guns may have come from the original shipped out for the RNVR AAC to the Dardanelles or provided by the RNAS.

ADM 137/400 Weekly Reports of the Rear Admiral British Aegean Squadron, 19 August - 29 December 1917.

ADM 137/661 Letter of Proceedings, Rear Admiral (R.A.) Aegean Squadron, 1918, January-May. 1918

ADM 137/662 Letter of Proceedings, R.A. Aegean Squadron, 1918, June-December.

ADM 137/699 Aegean Signal and W/T Orders, 1915-1918.

AIR 1/271/15/226/120 Weekly patrol reports from the British Adriatic Force, British Aegean Squadron, and R.N.A.S. seaplane squadrons operating from Malta and the East Indies and Egypt station, with summaries

AIR 1/455/15/312/45 Daily summaries of operation reports from (a) Home waters (navy) ( B ) Aegean, Adriatic and Mediterranean

AIR 1/490/15/312/292 Operation reports from Mediterranean and British Sqdns. in Aegean Sea 1917 Jan. - 1918 Mar.

An example of the defences that were organised: AIR 1/654/17/122/497 A.A. defence for Imbros, Greek Islands. 1916 Jan. - May

[Rockdoc]

Thanks. I'll make a note for the next time I go to Kew.

Keith