Rimless Brodies with different owners & liners

[Vimyridge]

Wondering what other have to say about this topic.

I have encountered, over the years Mk 1 Brodie helmets

with multiple names in them, or names that do not match the unit insignias.

I have also seen early rimless models with late war liners.

So I am making an assumption that at one point it was common for helmets to have liners

changed and for helmets to be passed on from one soldiers to another.

What are your experiences with helmets having multiples owners.

All the best!

Roger

[wainfleet]

Roger

Personally I'm quite happy with relined and reissued helmets. Along with rifles, equipment, boots etc. they were salvaged from the battlefield, refurbished if necessary and reissued. Also the liners presumably wore out sometimes and had to be replaced.

Over the years I've seen several refurbished helmets. Here's an RAMC one of mine. It's a raw edge helmet with the donut liner, so relined after June 1917. One of the strap guide rivets has been replaced by what looks like the head of a nail! However everything about it is clearly AOK.

Regards,

W.

[Peter Doyle]

Interesting; I understand that the strap guides were rectangular on early helmets. Does that mean, in this case, that the strap guides have been replaced, also? If so, presumably to work with the new strap/liner (I'd like to know, as I have a raw edge helmet with the same strap guide fitments)

Cheers

Peter

[wainfleet]

Peter

I don't think the strap guides themselves have been replaced on this helmet, and probably not on yours either. They are certainly smaller on the first patt. helmet with first patt. liner, but my observation has been that the shell changed before the edged helmet was introduced, and this type of strap guide tends to be found on the intermediate type between the very first helmets and the edged version. Not very precise I know, and I suspect there are some Brodie experts out there who can give chapter and verse!

Regards

W.

[Peter Doyle]

Thanks - makes sense, and certainly supports what I have seen with 'raw-edge' beasties.

Cheers

Peter

[scottmarchand]

You know I think a lot of these 'raw edged brodies' are incomplete helmets. The re-enforcing rim is held on with a very thin spot weld, and I really think they are helmets missing their edges, versus rimless helmets i.e. had parts fall off over the years rather than never had them. If you look closely at the RAMC one above you can clearly see the edge line around the rim of the helmet. The only brit helmets made without an edge ring were the very early batch of first patterns, witht the slightly oval shape made form mild manganese steel. I know there is a lot of desire and mythology around teh raw edge, but from what Bashford Deans book indicate once the liner changed from the fingered type to the rexene and asbestos type they were all made with the edge ring.

[Vimyridge]

Scott brings up a good point. Not all Brodies found without a rim are true rimless helmets in the strictest sense of the term.

A true rimless has 6 fingers of American cloth liner with a two piece chinstrap w/ clasp buckle.

But, one must take into consideration that if helmets would have had liners replaced

then it is very plausible that rimless helmets would find themselves with type "B" and "C" liners in 1917

I refer to the liner types as follows...

Type "A" 6 fingers of American cloth liner with a two piece chinstrap w/ clasp buckle.

Type "B" Second pattern liner with felt/asbestos pad

Type "C" Third liners with rubber ring beneath felt pad.

I have included many photos below, the fist one is a good examples of what Scott

is talking about. It is a 5th Canadian Div' helmet that has no rim with a type "B" liner

But if you look closely you will see where the factory applied paint would have seeped beneath a rim that was once there, yet at some point

the rim was removed and repainted during the war. ( Incidentally this helmet is named to Major Victor Kent, OC 55TH Battery C.F.A, 5th Div, K.I.A on March 4th 1918, Lievin FRANCE. the helmet is also named to, G.F. Saunders also of the 5th who was wounded in action)

On another note I have included three more helmets that are true rimless but that have type "B" and "C" liners.

If you look at the grey helmet, this is a Nov 1918 pained helmet to the 2nd Canadian mounted rifles.

As you can see from the interior and exterior of the helmet, there is no evidence of any rim having been there. (this helmet has rectangular shaped

chin strap guides riveted to the shell as with real rimless helmets)

Such is the case with the other two helmets I have included, a 2nd Infantry Bn, East Ontario Regt'

and the other, a 5th Artillery Battery 1st Canadian Division.

Both clearly have never had any sort of rim on the helmet.

The paint is original and goes to the edge..on both the top and underside of each helmet.

the factory paint is a little visible in the interior and it too extentd to the edge with no visible traces of there ever having

been a rim (these have the later square shaped chin strap guides riveted to the shell)

For comparison, I lastly included a real rimless with the proper liner which I refer to as the Type "A"

Note the two rectangle shaped brass chinstrap guides that

are riveted to the shell. later models had the leather passed through this guide so non rimless have square shaped guides

[Vimyridge]

2ND CDN MOUNTED RIFLES , 3RD DIV'

[Vimyridge]

2ND INFANTRY BN, 1ST DIV (CANADIAN)

2nd bn

2ND BN PT III

[Vimyridge]

2nd Bn Part 4

2dn Bn Part 5

5th Battery Cdn Field Artillery , 1st Div'

No evidence of there ever having

a rim on this helmet. The original paint extends to the outer edge of the exterior and

interior of steel shell

[Vimyridge]

Original Rimless Brodie

Inside or original rimless

[Vimyridge]

[wainfleet]

Scott brings up a good point. Not all Brodies found without a rim are true rimless helmets in the strictest sense of the term.

A true rimless has 6 fingers of American cloth liner with a two piece chinstrap w/ clasp buckle.

Roger

I am quite sure that isn't the case. Sorry I can't give chapter and verse (tho I'm sure someone who can will come along), but I'll stick my neck out and claim that the second patt. liner was certainly in use well before the advent of the rimmed Brodie.

Best wishes,

W.

[Vimyridge]

Hello Wainfleet

I get your point and I'm sure you are also correct.

What I was tying to say was that a "True rimless" in the collectors sense of the term and in value should have the first patter liner to be a "real rimless"

If you buy a rimless model, then having a first pattern liner in there changes the value.

that is why I stated in my original post "In the strictest sense of the term"

As for when the rimed edge and second pattern liner was introduced.... Roger Lucy who wrote the book TIN LIDS (Service Publications 2000)

states in "April 1916 a number of changes were approved" which were...

(I have paraphrased the exact quote here)

1.Fitting a mild magnetic steel rim

2.Larger lugs

3. Addition of a new second pattern liner.

The book goes on to state that in Sept 1916 this modified helmet received the designation Helmet, Steel, Mk 1. He also states

"As these changes were phased in between April and September, combination's of old and new features can be found on helmets manufactured in this period"

so I guess I should re phrase my post in that a true RIMLESS in as far as collection and value goes, should have the 1st pattern liner...in my opinion.

So all that too say, and as you can see from the photos I posted.

I do believe there are TRUE RIMLESS Helmets (1st pattern liner)

Then RIMLESS helmets that have later pattern liners, even the 3rd pattern liner (June 1917)

and then there are helmets with rims removed during the war....why was this done would be my question (see the 5th div example I posted, clearly there was a rim)

Cheers

Roger

[Wardog]

I think that puts things well Roger. I have a rimless that has obviously never had a rim, but has the second liner. It also attracts a magnet but I am unsure what that can tell us about date. I think I have heard/read that to start with helmets were not personal issue and only became so just pre Somme. I would have thought at the start of the battle the vast majority if not all would have had rimless shells, perhaps even all the 1st type liner. This is an assumption and I would be interested in comment . Regards, Paul.

[Joe Sweeney]

Wondering what other have to say about this topic.

I have encountered, over the years Mk 1 Brodie helmets

with multiple names in them, or names that do not match the unit insignias.

I have also seen early rimless models with late war liners.

So I am making an assumption that at one point it was common for helmets to have liners

changed and for helmets to be passed on from one soldiers to another.

What are your experiences with helmets having multiples owners.

All the best!

Roger

Roger,

I have had the same experience.

I have a nice MKI that has the 58th Bn Formation sign but has the name of some-one with unit info to the 3rd Div Art Sigs.

I believe both are genuine and that the Sigs guy was the last owner as the 58ths Bn sign was inexpertly scratched over.

I have a 13th Bn Rimless Helmet relined with MKI liner and Chinstrap.

I have a 43rd BN Rimless with original Liner and replaced chinstrap (sign is identical to the one Victors book).

Relining helmets was extemely common especially the War Office Patterns--how many photos exist of the liner being worn as a cap. Since you own an original War Office in oroginal configuration you'll note that the liner is not really well riveted.

Joe Sweeney

[Wardog]

Does anyone know when the MKI arrived on the front line? Come to that- off on a tangent- when did the German M16 helmet come into use on the Somme? Regards, Paul.

[133.R]

Does it give a reason why some rimless brodies are painted yellow inside?

Regards Sven

[Andrew Upton]

Does it give a reason why some rimless brodies are painted yellow inside?

Curious - I've seen ones converted to lampshades before painted gold, silver, white, etc, inside to reflect the light from a bulb better, but they typically have the fittings stripped out before having that done.

[Tim P]

My example, by virtue of the wider brim at the sides and the tendency to rock slightly on a flat surface has been identified as a ww1 shell with ww2 fittings. It has a rim. I would like to retro fit it and wondered what that would entail... I plan to get a liner and strap from mhw but need guidance on how to deal with the ww2 chinstrap mounts that presumably need to go. Total newbie so please forgive the lack of savvy...

[Chief_Chum]

'Notes on Salvage Work' issued by the Quartermaster-General's Branch, GHQ, in January, 1918 gives a very good indication of why so many helmets have mis-matched liners and names inside.

It states that in one month alone (September, 1917) 47,707 Steel Helmets were overhauled and cleaned and gives the following instructions (see scan below) on the method of dealing with salvaged Steel Helmets.

Some of you will remember G B Jameson. He was one of the last surviving British Officer veterans of The Great War and he had a nasty double scar which ran diagonally across his face near his eye. I asked him what caused it and he told me that a shell splinter struck his steel helmet and ripped the rim clean off and it wrapped itself around his head and caused the slashes across his face and around his head. Even if this only happened rarely I could imagine that the rims would not be popular and it may explain why so many rims are missing from later helmets.

Wardog is right; helmets were originally a Trench Store. From memory it takes until May, 1916 for all men serving in front line units to be issued with their own. If anyone can confirm that it would be interesting to know.

Cheers,

Taff

.

[Joe Sweeney]

Taff,

You are correct Helemts became items of Personal equipment with GRO 1602 (BEF) on 30 May 1916. Initially limited to certain types of troops--Infantry, Art., Cavalry, the list was slowly but almost universally expanded from that date.

Other Theatres may have had other dates for the Helmets.

Joe Sweeney

[Chief_Chum]

Thanks for that Joe.

I was pretty sure it was around that time but couldn't remember for sure.

Thanks again.

Taff

[wainfleet]

Does it give a reason why some rimless brodies are painted yellow inside?

Regards Sven

Sven

I think the yellow paint inside the helmet you posted a picture of is the undercoat. They just didn't bother painting over the bit that would be hidden by the liner.

Regards,

W.