George GSG RUSSELL - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

[Liesl]

Hi again all,

I am looking for a soldier by the name of George Gibb Shirra Gibb RUSSELL (believe it or not!), I think he was born in Scotland about 1895. He was wounded and ended up in Cambridge where he met Janet Skinner who was a VAD nurse. They married in 1918.

I have A******y but I can not find him anywhere. I thought it would be easier since he has such and unusual name.

I will also attempt to attach a photo here of him in his uniform:

[Verrico2009]

This is your man:-

Name: George Gibb S[hirra]-G[ibb] Russell

Regiment or Corps: Argyll & Sutherlanduth [sic] High

Regimental Number: S/9099

[Liesl]

That was quick! Will try to find him through his regiment,

[Verrico2009]

Well, he was there or he wasn't - with a name like that I thought they ought to have recorded at least some of it! After looking in despair at all the Georges, I fixed the surname and just added his initials: popped right up. Good luck - do hope there's some service records for you.

[Liesl]

Thanks so much, I have sent an email to the Regiment so I will see what I get from them.

[MBrockway]

Liesl,

If you Edit the topic title to mention Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, then you're likely to attract in one of the Pals here who specialises in the A&SH, who may well be able to help - officers usually have more of a presence in regimental reference material.

To edit the Topic Title, go back to your first post, click the Edit button immediately underneath it, then click Full Edit. You can then go up to the titles areas and make the changes.

As regards the names, there's a tradition in Scotland of including the grandfather's full name into a new generation. It's a neat way of remembering your ancestry! However it can get rather complex after a few generations since the grandfather himself probably had his own grandfather's names embedded too, so you get these naming elements repeating, as in your man here. In my family, the tradition is the eldest son is named for the paternal GF and the second eldest after the maternal GF. For the daughters is is the other way around.

In your case here, I would guess that George may be named after his mother's father, possibly a Gibb Shira GIBB.

Of course, I may be COMPLETELY wrong!

Good luck!

Great picture by the way ... and sounds like an interesting man to research!

Cheers,

Mark

[Liesl]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your suggestion - I have edited the original heading. Also, thanks for explaining about the name thing - now it makes sense! Unfortunately they never had children so there was no one else to inflict the name on. That should make it a bit easier for me to trace his family as well.

It is a great photo, I can see why Janet fell for him, he's a bit cute!

Liesl

[Liesl]

I received a reply from Argyll and Sutherland Higlanders today and they have given me some interesting info. I still can't find his service record on A******y, does this mean I need to employ someone to search TNA for me??

Thanks for your help.

Liesl

[roughdiamond]

Hi again all,

I am looking for a soldier by the name of George Gibb Shirra Gibb RUSSELL (believe it or not!), I think he was born in Scotland about 1895. He was wounded and ended up in Cambridge where he met Janet Skinner who was a VAD nurse. They married in 1918.

You're a good bit out with the DOB, according to "Scotlands People" he was born 1887 in Inverkeithing, Fife.

Sam

[Verrico2009]

I still can't find his service record on A******y, does this mean I need to employ someone to search TNA for me??

Sadly, it probably means his records were in the approximately 60% destroyed in WW2. Ancestry records (s'ok to say the name: you're doing your own personal research - though it can be a "dirty word" when they produce gobbledegook!) are a straight copy of what's in the NA, as I understand it.

Just occasionally records are there but not recorded correctly - you'll see posts go up to the effect of "was looking at Fred Blogg's records when I came across Joe Smith" and only one set of Verrico records are listed (Vincent) but by going backwards into the previous set of records I found another (Joseph). However, whether it's worth paying a researcher to go through on the offchance is up to you. I suspect if the experts on here (don't include myself in that grouping) can't track them down, you can assume they're not there.

[Liesl]

You're a good bit out with the DOB, according to "Scotlands People" he was born 1887 in Inverkeithing, Fife.

Sam

Thanks Sam,

I was a long way out! Will go back and check now......

[Liesl]

Sadly, it probably means his records were in the approximately 60% destroyed in WW2. Ancestry records (s'ok to say the name: you're doing your own personal research - though it can be a "dirty word" when they produce gobbledegook!) are a straight copy of what's in the NA, as I understand it.

Just occasionally records are there but not recorded correctly - you'll see posts go up to the effect of "was looking at Fred Blogg's records when I came across Joe Smith" and only one set of Verrico records are listed (Vincent) but by going backwards into the previous set of records I found another (Joseph). However, whether it's worth paying a researcher to go through on the offchance is up to you. I suspect if the experts on here (don't include myself in that grouping) can't track them down, you can assume they're not there.

I have a couple of people's service records I need to find - so it might be worth getting someone to look into it for me at TNA - I just checked Ancestry (looking for lightning strike ) with the new birth date and still can't find anything. I might just sleep on it for a while and see if any other good Samaritans on this site have any info that may help me out....

Thanks for all your replies.

Liesl

[kenf48]

Hi

His Medal Index Card on Ancestry shows he was promoted to 2nd Lieutenant. There is a note in the remarks column that says Commd (? Commissioned) 27.6.17. You could have look in the London Gazette although that is very difficult to search (see recent thread). The Army List 1917 is the first place to look, you could ask for a look up on the forum or try and get a copy from your local library. This will tell you where he served as an officer and enable you to track his career.

As an officer his records will not be on Ancestry but may be in Officers Records at TNA. The medal rolls at the TNA will give his Bn, ( I suspect as a 2nd Lieut) but on the basis of his original number it is probable he was in the 14th Bn., the S/ prefix denotes Service Battalion and he probably enlisted in 1915 (9093/9094 were early casualties in October 1916, just after the Bn went overseas) whether he actually went with them I don't know, if he did they served with the 40th Division and I have copy of the Divisional History by F.E.Whitton. As an officer there is a greater degree of certainty he will be referred to by name in the war diaries.

My great uncle was in the 14th Bn (S/14176) and they were heavily involved in the fighting on the Lys in 1918 so that fits with him being wounded although he may well have been in another Bn on promotion.

It may help if you want to share what the museum told you. I assume you've also looked at the LLT 'Be sure to read this' at the top of the page. Another source for information on researching officers is the TNA book First World war army service records by T. E. Spencer.

At the risk of egg sucking lessons as with any genealogy research it's good to have a specific goal (e.g. when and where did he enlist?) then follow that through and move on to the next step rather than the more general 'looking for'. It should be relatively easy to find out when exactly he was commissioned and then work forwards from that first, and then back to his original service. For the latter you may need to look for soldiers who enlisted around the same time (i.e. have a similar number) and make educated guesses.

Ken

[Liesl]

Thanks Ken for your reply. I am going to print it out so I can start methodically looking through the different places you have mentioned.

I could not see his medal card on Ancestry - but I will try again.

This is what was sent by the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders:

"George appears to have initially enlisted as a private soldier with the

number s/9099. He does not appear to have been awarded a 1915 star which

would suggest that he did not enter a theatre of war until at least the

beginning of 1916. He was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant officer in the

3rd battalion on the 27/6/1917. Attended a musketry course at St Andrews

(probably around early 1917). Arrived in France on the 21/4/1918 and joined

the 8th battalion on the 1/6/1918.

I had hoped there would be a mention of his wounding in the 8th battalion

war diary for 1918 however there was no record of him at all."

Regards

Liesl

[Liesl]

Found his medal card now.....

[kenf48]

Great!

Not an exact science but the 8th Bn were heavily engaged in the Battle of the Marne at Soissons around 21 -23 July and incurred heavy casualties in the successful counter attack which eventually led to final victory.

Have a look here http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search14-21.php and follow Geoff's (wonderful) instructions if you put in 8th Bn with a date range from 1/6/1918 to 1/10/1918 there are around 100 casualties. This is not definitive but offers some clues.

It's a possibility, disappointing he wasn't in the diary, though, but sadly the writer may not have had time to get to know him

Ken

[Liesl]

Thank you for all your help Ken.

[Liesl]

From using the info given to me by A&S Highlanders, Long Long trail and Ken, this is what I have come up with:

From the Long Long Trail:

"3rd (Reserve) Battalion

August 1914 : at Stirling. A depot/training unit, it moved on mobilisation to Woolwich, going on in May 1915 to Edinburgh and in March 1917 to Dreghorn. Moved to Kinsale in November 1917."

My man was born in Stirlingshire (good start). So he would have been in Dreghorn when he was commissioned a 2nd Lieutenant in June 1917 (from A&SH).

Then:

Again from Long Long Trail:

"1/8th (The Argyllshire) Battalion

1 June 1918 : transferred to 45th Brigade in 15th (Scottish) Division. Absorbed troops from disbanded 11th Bn."

He transferred to the 8th on 1/6/1918 (A&SH), so that means he would then be apart of the 45th Brigade in the 15th (Scottish) Divison.

Long Long Trail:

"(15th Scottish Div)

1918

The First Battle of Bapaume+

The First Battle of Arras+

The battles marked + are phases of the First Battles of the Somme 1918

The Battle of the Soissonnais and of the Ourcq including the the attack on Buzancy, a phase of the Battles of the Marne 1918

The Final Advance in Artois"

The above fits in with Ken's reckoning

This gives me a good timeline! But I have two questions:

1. I don't know who he was with when he arrived in France on the 21/4/1918 to the merger with the 15th Scottish on the 1/6/1918.

2. Should I be looking for the 15th (Scottish) Division, 45th Brigade war dairies to maybe find something on his wounding?

I don't know if this is in bad taste - but I am really enjoying researching Mr George GSG Russell's Military history.

Thanks

Liesl