WW1 Swastika ?

[Nigel Marshall]

Thanks for being my memory, Nigel!

Cheers,

er, Nigel

[malch]

There is a Great War Memorial outside Balmoral Castle which lists all the names of those from the estate that died during the Great War. It was erected by the King and Queen, and has a row of swastikas across the bottom.

A later plaque has been added (presumably after ww2) helpfully pointing-out that this ws a good luck symbol at the time.

The swastika was also commonly used as a papragraph separator in periodicals like "The Bystander".

M

[jhill]

At the time of The Great War there was a vigorous Ladies' Hockey League in Edmonton. One of the best known teams was the Swastikas which was sponsored by the Metropolitan Methodist Church. This Church, located a short walk from where I am typing this, was one of the "Big Three" churches on the South Side.

Although I never met any of those ladies, I have heard others say that, in later life, some of the old dears would point wimsically at the old photos of the seven gals posing proudly in their swastica team jerseys and note that before You-know-who hijacked the symbol it had no meaning more sinister than the Shamrocks or the Maple Leafs.

[Tom W.]

Werner Voss, one of the greatest pilots of World War I, was Jewish but used the swastika on his Albatros D.III fighter as a good-luck symbol. As others have said on this thread, the Nazis took a perfectly fine symbol and perverted it.

[Peridot]

Thanks for that Bob, it's of interest.

Peridot

[Neil Mackenzie]

I always thought that the German swastika was the 'wrong way around' however, as someone has already pointed out, there are swastikas in the Roman mosaic at Lullingstone in Kent that are both ways around - including the 'German' way - which suggests they were using an existing version of the symbol.

Did these different versions mean different things in Greco-Roman times?

Neil

[Gibbo]

Since the subject has been raised, here are some comments on the treatment of Jewish war veterans, including Otto Frank, by the Nazis. I have tried to stay on topic for this website by confining it to WWI veterans and their families.

Comment from the website of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on the treatment of Jewish German Great War veterans under the Nazi regime. The paragraph quoted below is towards the end of the article linked in the previous sentence.

German regulations initially exempted German Jewish war veterans and elderly persons over the age of sixty-five, as well as Jews living in mixed marriages (“privileged marriages”) with German “Aryans” and the offspring of those marriages from anti-Jewish measures, including deportations. In the end, German officials deported disabled and highly decorated Jewish war veterans as well as elderly or prominent Jews from so-called Greater German Reich and the German-occupied Netherlands to the Theresienstadt (Terezin) ghetto near Prague. Although the SS used the ghetto as a showcase to portray the fiction of “humane” treatment of Jews, Theresienstadt in actuality represented a way station for most Jews en route to their deportation “to the east.” The SS and police routinely relocated Jews from Theresienstadt, including German Jews, to killing centers and killing sites in German-occupied Poland, Belorussia, and the Baltic States. More than 30,000 died in the Theresienstadt ghetto itself, mostly from starvation, illness, or maltreatment.

Otto Frank owed his survival to luck, not his war record. The Frank family were arrested on 4 August 1944 and deported to Auschwitz a month later. All were selected for slave labour rather than death. Anne and her sister Margot were transferred to Bergen-Belsen in late October, where both died of illness. Gassings at Auschwitz ended in November, and the Germans marched the survivors westwards in January 1945, by which time their mother Edith had died. Otto was amongst the sick prisoners who were left behind. Had he fallen sick when the gas chambers were still in operation, then he would have been murdered.

Thus, the fate of the Franks depended on the luck of the timing of their betrayal, not his military service. Earlier, and Otto would have been gassed when he fell ill. Later, and all would have avoided being sent to Auschwitz.

[matthew lucas]

and the US 45th Division used it as a Div symbol prior to Hitler coming to power, then changed it to the Thunderbird, and in 1945 they were there in nuremburg, where the symbol had such connections...

matt

[Grandson of Fritz]

Here is a picture of one of my grandfather's planes with swastika, Feb /March 1918 - second plane from the right.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft...9-please-3.html

[see Post No. 22 of the thread.]

[Tom W.]

Here is a picture of one of my grandfather's planes with swastika, Feb /March 1918 - second plane from the right.

Great photo. Notice that the swastika faces in the opposite direction to the one that Werner Voss painted on his aircraft. Also, the Nazi swastika was generally tilted 45 degrees.

I found this quote by Hitler, explaining in Mein Kampf his thoughts behind the Nazi flag:

In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic.(pg. 496-497).

It appears from this that Hitler deliberately chose a Hindu symbol based on his notion of Indo-European racial purity.

[Guest Johnfi]

I have seen a small silver swastika medallion marked with details of a Zepp shot down over UK in 1917 - alledgedly found at the crash site.

Was the swastika in use in Germany in 1917 - albeit without the Nazi association?

I believe the swastika was also used as a divisional sign by British units, somewhere I have an old set of ciggie cards from WWI which shows the swastika on a green background, when I find them I will scan and upload the relevant card.

[Peridot]

Gibbo-your post no 32 does tie in more with my understanding of what happened to the Franks.

Thanks.

Peridot

[CROONAERT]

I believe the swastika was also used as a divisional sign by British units, somewhere I have an old set of ciggie cards from WWI which shows the swastika on a green background, when I find them I will scan and upload the relevant card.

These by any chance?....

...

[CROONAERT]

Amongst the others was Carlsberg brewery who had the Swastika on the beer and assorted ephemera. Started to use it around 1900

/Lars

Indeed they did... and stopped using it around 1920(ish)?....

Carlsberg pendant found on the remains of a German soldier at Thelus...

[CROONAERT]

...Have an elephant from the Carlsberg brewery...

[Tony Lund]

Advertisement for National Savings in the Holmfirth Express. I think this was from 1917.

Tony.

[Guest Johnfi]

These by any chance?....

...

Aye, their the ones, saves me routing em out now, cheers

[healdav]

Funnily enough, yesterday evening I was reading a copy of Kim dating from 1902. It has an illustration of the Tibetan Lama and on his shoulder bag (I think it is) there is a very prominent swastika.

[CROONAERT]

Another use...the Finnish airforce of 1918-45...

"The swastika was the symbol of good fortune used by the Swedish Count Eric von Rosen who during the Finnish Civil War presented to the Finnish White Army its first aircraft on March 6th, 1918. The swastika was painted on the upper side and under side of the wings of the Thulin Parasol he brought from Sweden. The symbol was adopted by the Finnish Air Force to honor him. "

Finnish Bf 109's...

[centurion]

Another use...the Finnish airforce of 1918-45...

"The swastika was the symbol of good fortune used by the Swedish Count Eric von Rosen who during the Finnish Civil War presented to the Finnish White Army its first aircraft on March 6th, 1918. The swastika was painted on the upper side and under side of the wings of the Thulin Parasol he brought from Sweden. The symbol was adopted by the Finnish Air Force to honor him. "

A repeat more or less of an earlier post on this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1363131.

[centurion]

Latvian airforce

http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/...814192_074w.jpg

[CROONAERT]

A repeat more or less of an earlier post on this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1363131.

Oh well...my apologies for not noticing it...but...so what? - The whole subject has been discussed previously on this forum too, but I can't see how the fact of mentioning that helps at all on this particular thread.

Dave

[centurion]

Another use...the Finnish airforce of 1918-45...

"The swastika was the symbol of good fortune used by the Swedish Count Eric von Rosen who during the Finnish Civil War presented to the Finnish White Army its first aircraft on March 6th, 1918. The swastika was painted on the upper side and under side of the wings of the Thulin Parasol he brought from Sweden. The symbol was adopted by the Finnish Air Force to honor him. "

In fact although numbered F1 the Thulin (a copy of the Morane Sauliner L) was the second aircraft in the Finish Airforce (then called the Finnish Air Service). The 1st an ex Swedish Albatross BII had arrived a day earlier but did not survive long. The Finnish Air Service was founded on March 1st 1918 and was entirely separate from both army and naval forces. It was in effect the world's first independent air force being one month older than the RAF. The swastika on this aircraft was originally only painted on one surface but showed through the thin translucent doped linen which gave the impression that it was painted on both sides (although I believe that when the aircraft was restored it may have been painted on both sides)

In fact the Finns stopped using the swastika in 1944 (not '45 as Wikki mistakenly states) when as part of the armistice agreement with the USSR it had to cooperate in driving German forces out of Finland and Soviet pilots and AA gunners tended to open up on Swastikas. The blue and white cockade was adopted as photos testify.

[MartH]

The Finnish Airforce was founded on the 6th March 1918, Click to this link to see a photo of the Counts aircraft Finnish Airforce Site, and the other side Other Photo, He actually became a brother in law of Goring.

Some Finnish airforce insignia today I understand has origins in the blue swastika, and certainly some Finnish Medals have it, designed by the wonderful world famous designer and Mannerhiem's aide: Akseli Gallen-Kallela.

The Moscow Armistice terms where for Finnish forces to drive out the Germans in the north of Finland, not cooperate with Soviet Forces, Soviet Forces where not involved, the Finns did the actual fighting, the last thing on earth the Finns wanted was to have the hated Soviet Forces on Finnish soil, it was a very big motivation.

I also think that the stopping of the use of the swastika on Finnish aircraft where part of the Moscow Armistice Terms, and they started using them again in the late 1950's as part of the airforce insignia.

[centurion]

The Finnish Airforce was founded on the 6th March 1918, Click to this link to see a photo of the Counts aircraft Finnish Airforce Site, and the other side Other Photo, He actually became a brother in law of Goring.

Some Finnish airforce insignia today I understand has origins in the blue swastika, and certainly some Finnish Medals have it, designed by the wonderful world famous designer and Mannerhiem's aide: Akseli Gallen-Kallela.

The Moscow Armistice terms where for Finnish forces to drive out the Germans in the north of Finland, not cooperate with Soviet Forces, Soviet Forces where not involved, the Finns did the actual fighting, the last thing on earth the Finns wanted was to have the hated Soviet Forces on Finnish soil, it was a very big motivation.

I also think that the stopping of the use of the swastika on Finnish aircraft where part of the Moscow Armistice Terms, and they started using them again in the late 1950's as part of the airforce insignia.

No 1st March. 1st aircraft a Swedish built Albatross BII had already been flown in on 25 Feb by John-Allan Hygerth who was to become the forces first Commander; 6th March was when the Thulin arrived with Rosen as a passenger but the service had legally been in existence for 6 days. One thing that has caused confusion is that the Thulin was numbered F1 (possibly as a complement to Rosen) whilst the real first aircraft was numbered F2

There was cooperation between the Finnish Air Force and the Soviet Air Force which continued to operate over Finland whilst WW2 continued (as did the Luftwaffe). I'd be extremely surprised if the Finnish airforce re introduced the swastika in the 1950s - all the photos I have of Finnish aircraft at the time have the blue and white cockade. The USSR which still retained some influence at the time would certainly have reacted adversely. Do you have any photos to the contrary?