Reversed bullets

[egbert]

No, unfortunately I cannot Mick, it was a loaner from the Dresden mil library

P.S. I believe it was in Jüngers book and he was explaining his battery or platoon? usually had only 6 or 9 SMK ammo and reversed bullets in order to fight tanks

[SiegeGunner]

Location or approx date, perhaps, Egbert? SmK (often referred to as just K) ammunition was certainly in short supply initially, and the amount you mention sounds like a meagre allowance for shooting at sniper plates.

[johnreed]

Please see video Clip.

John

[johnreed]

Today I spoke with Andy Robertshaw who conducted the experiment and he stated that a piece of armour plate which was recovered from the tank dig site was sent to Royal Military College of Science at Schrivenham for analysis who confirm it was a piece of 6mm armour plate. A piece of 6mm armour plate of Vickers 600 hardness was obtained for the test, this piece was harder that the piece recovered. The round used was a 7.92mm.fired from a Mauser Gewehr 98.

John

[egbert]

Spot on , thanks John for proof-of-concept

[tharkin56]

came across this from 1915

[Robert Dunlop]

In May 1915, the following appeared in the Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine. Under the title 'Exhibit-German Cartridge with Bullet reversed.', which was presented by Dr William Hill:

"This specimen was one of a large stock of rifle ammunition, similarly treated, found on a German sniper who was captured on a haystack near Ypres."

There is no photograph of the exhibit.

Robert

[SiegeGunner]

I wonder whether there is a German counterpart to Hesketh-Pritchard's "Sniping in France"? If so, it might cast light on the intended or purported purpose of making and using reversed rounds.

I have never subscribed to the view that the Germans systematically fired reversed bullets at infantrymen out of sheer nastiness, to inflict worse wounds than with conventional bullets, but am certainly open to evidence of possible reasons for their use to obtain some perceived advantage (real or imagined) over a conventional bullet — as last-ditch man-stoppers at very close range against massed attackers (akin to hunting bullets and soft-nosed bullets used in colonial wars against 'savage enemies'), or, in the hands of snipers with some advantage of elevation, to better penetrate steel helmets. Also, it was widely believed that the British used illegal/modified ammunition, and even German ballistics experts held the view that the British Mark VII .303 bullet was on or even over the borderline of being a 'dum dum' projectile. In such a climate, I could believe, if evidence could be adduced, that some reversed bullets were deliberately fired at men in 'retaliation'.

[MikB]

I wonder whether there is a German counterpart to Hesketh-Pritchard's "Sniping in France"? If so, it might cast light on the intended or purported purpose of making and using reversed rounds.

I really wouldn't want to resurrect national stereotypes, but H-P's anecdotal, discursive and idiosyncratic style is pretty peculiarly British, even English. I wouldn't really expect to find a German equivalent.

Regards,

MikB

[green_acorn]

I recently purchased the N&M/IWM book "Trench Fortifications 1914-1918", in Pt I, Notes on Field Fortifications (French Army), pages 197-199, it describes the effects of the S bullet, direct or reversed against various parapets and "special steel plate",

paragraph 343. The Germans use-

(1) The S bullet, either direct or reversed. The bullet when reversed is particularly effective at short ranges against homogeneous steel plates.

paragraph 346. "Final experiments with fire against special steel plates have given the following results:

S bullet (direct):

0.197-inch plate can be perforated at ranges up to 164 yards.

0.276-inch plate withstands shots from a range of 27 yards.

0.315-inch plate withstands shots at all ranges.

S bullet (reversed):

0.276-inch plate can be pierced at ranges not over 55 yards,

0.315-inch plate can be pierced at ranges not over 27 yards.

0.394-inch plate can be pierced at ranges not over 22 yards.

SMK Armour-Piercing Bullet.

In order to resist the SMK armour-piercing bullet at 55 yards at a normal range of impact, 0.55-inch of special steel must be provided. The resistance of plate increases rapidly with the angle of impact of the bullet. .....................

So it would seem there is some truth to the old wives tales of the reversed S bullet, in the counter-sniper/observer role.

Cheers,

Hendo

[Old Tom]

Nice to see this raised again. There were lots of doubts at first, but this seems to confirm the fact.

Old Tom

[auchonvillerssomme]

It confirms that we experimented with reversed bullets, it doesn't confirm they were used.

[centurion]

It confirms that we experimented with reversed bullets, it doesn't confirm they were used.

And this fact has already been posted long ago so it isn't only luke warm soup but very stale soup (ok don't strain the language too far). Britain experimented with reversed bullets to determine if sniper plates were adequate and the results were also fed to the tank designers

[green_acorn]

auchonvillerssomme, on 04 Jun 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

It confirms that we experimented with reversed bullets, it doesn't confirm they were used.

And this fact has already been posted long ago so it isn't only luke warm soup but very stale soup (ok don't strain the language too far). Britain experimented with reversed bullets to determine if sniper plates were adequate and the results were also fed to the tank designers

Guys,

I reviewed this thread prior to posting the extract of the French WW1 publication and had not found any period evidence from the combatant army's posted on the subject. I did not however review the two other threads on the subject, so I apologise if it is luke warm and stale soup.

Noting paragraph 343 The Germans use - The S bullet, either direct or reversed. So I assume the French (not the British "we experimented") had some definite proof and experience of the German use of the reversed S bullet, against the French, at the time they printed the publication.

Also note they don't write about the evil Germans using the reversed bullet to cause outrageous wounds as the British press of the time so often did, rather the French focus solely on the penetration ability of the reversed bullet against reinforced parapets and special steel plate. A reasonable reader of that would come to the conclusion that the French had some experience of their defensive measures being beaten and that they had found out that it was because of the reversed S bullet and the SMK armour-piercing bullet, which may have been new to the battlefield at the time of writing.

If someone has the report reference for the British experiments with reversed bullets on sniper plates, I would be interested in getting the details, for future reading.

Cheers,

Hendo

[MikB]

"...so I apologise if it is luke warm and stale soup. "

It isn't. Your table of tests is the clearest piece of tabulated evidence I can remember seeing in this or related threads.

It certainly beats the 'cor lookadat !' style of the videos, where we don't have tabulations of thicknesses and distances.

Thanks.

Regards,

MikB

[David Filsell]

Not my field but re Junger it might be necessary to know the date of publication of the book there were an number of versions in German of Storm of steel. Avoid the latest poor English translation

[auchonvillerssomme]

The 'Black & Tan's' were accused of using reversed bullets in Ireland in 1921.

[MikB]

The 'Black & Tan's' were accused of using reversed bullets in Ireland in 1921.

As has been said by me and others elsewhere, the dimensions and construction of the round makes that very difficult with 303.

Regards,

MikB

[auchonvillerssomme]

What source says they were .303 in Ireland?

[MikB]

What source says they were .303 in Ireland?

Well, I have to admit I'm guessing, but the B&Ts being a Unionist group would surely have been using standard British calibre arms, even if the opposition had some German-made weapons remaining from the support given in WW1 ?

If there's information that says otherwise, I'd be happy to stand corrected, but I'd've expected Ireland to be awash with 303s at that time, and for it to be the default calibre probably for all sides.

Regards,

MikB

[AOK4]

I personally have some british rounds which have the tops cut off and which I have found myself near Geluveld...

[TonyE]

I personally have some british rounds which have the tops cut off and which I have found myself near Geluveld...

Since the .303 inch Mark VII Ball bullet has a filler tip of either aluminium, compressed fibre or ceramic, breaking the tip off the bullet leaves you with a lead core inside an envelope open at both ends. The result when fired is that the envelope remains stuck in the bore whilst the core exits the barrel. The next bullet strikes the envelope and bulges the barrel with the results shown below. That was in a 7.92mm barrel, not a .303 inch.

With regard to Ireland, it is possible the Black and Tans were using .455 inch revolvers with either Mark III or Mark IV ball ammunition. Although both had been issue rounds around the turn of the century they were considered illegal for modern warfare which is why the "normal" Mark II ball was used in WWI. The situation in Ireland may have been different with the IRA considered irregulars not subject to the conventions.

Both types of bullet could be mistaken for reversed bullets as the picture shows.

Regards

TonyE

[MikB]

Points well made, TonyE. I was wondering whether revolver - rather than rifle - rounds were the object of the 'reversed bullets' accusation. Of course, cylindrical bullets of similar design to the Mk.IV are still carrying on a more 'respectable' existence as target wadcutters...

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

Indeed Mik. The .455 inch Mark V bullet, which is virtually identical to the Mark IV externally was introduced in 1914 specifically as a target shooting round and was not issued for general service.

Regards

TonyE

[auchonvillerssomme]

There is no evidence of what alleged round was reversed, .303 or .455.

This is part of the statement, it was made to Lord Parmoor by his brother.

26 April 1921

"... I have a bullet in its cartridge ease picked up by me on Sunday the 17th, the cap dented by the striker but unexploded. The bullet has been reversed, thus converting it into an expanding bullet of the most deadly character. Such bullets inflict the most terrible wounds, and were prohibited in the late war.’ My brother was, of course, a great surgeon in his day. Here is the dum-dum bullet. It is not suggested that anyone fired in that hotel except the Government Auxiliaries. I do not, know whether any of your Lordships would wish to see this bullet. I have shown it to two or three people who say that it is undoubtedly a dum-dum bullet, and the way by which it has been made such is by the familiar system of turning the point in the reverse direction."