Identification of badges/uniform/sword

[anthony]

Hi,

Was interested in as much as I can find out about these characters.

First up is this Kings Own territorial Sergeant-is the badge on his arm that of a musketry instructor? I thought that he would have worn this on his left arm, or is it because he is a Colour Sergeant and his left arm above the stripes has the crossed flags on it? It seems something else is there? I thought that the flags would not be worn in service uniform.

Why would he be wearing a sword? If it was ceremonial, should he not be in his dress uniform?

Thanks for any suggestions.

[anthony]

Next chap is an officer-I was particularly interested in the armband he is wearing and the uniform-its not a kind I can recall seeing on other photos of the period.

[anthony]

Another officer with strange armband...

[squirrel]

The Sergeant appears to be a Colour Sergeant Instructor in Musketry - crossed rifles between the chevrons and crown.

Quite why he is wearing a sword I have no idea but IIRC Colour Sergeants were entitled to wear a sword on certain occasions.

Both the Officers are wearing jackets of earlier pattern than the 1908 and both have cuff rank. One band of braid and one or two stars to denote Sub Lt or Lt.

I am sure that others will have further answers for you.

[anthony]

Regimental sergeant major?

[squirrel]

Looks like it to me.

[anthony]

Thanks squirrel that was quick-any idea as to the armband the officers wear on their left arm?

[anthony]

Here's the armband..haven't a clue as to why the two officers are wearing it or what it means.

[anthony]

Here's the view of the Sergeant's partially obscured right arm..I didn't think a Colour sergeant would wear his union flags on his khaki uniform, instead a small crown would take it's place? Any ideas what the badge is?

[squirrel]

Sergeant should be wearing the same badges on each arm.

Not a clue what the Officer's armband signifies.

[Andrew Upton]

Both the Officers are wearing jackets of earlier pattern than the 1908 and both have cuff rank. One band of braid and one or two stars to denote Sub Lt or Lt.

Not quite correct - Officers cuff-rank tunics with the closed collar and braid epaulettes were introduced in 1902, and replaced with the open collar and epaulettes of the same material as the rest of the tunic in 1912, although they are still seen in reducing numbers throughout the war (and many were converted to the newer pattern after it's intoduction).

http://209.85.135.132/search?q=cache:-J9gc...uk&ie=UTF-8

[Muerrisch]

The sergeant [like the rest of the TF], was not obliged to own a full-dress uniform: quite the contrary. He is a sergeant [not colour sergeant] assistant instructor musketry: the crossed rifles and crown was intrinsic to the badge issued to those qualified to instruct at the various Small Arms Courses. He is probably a regular soldier, attached, and therefore on the battalion staff, and therefore wears the staff-pattern sword on ceremonial occasions. One thing that does surprise me is the absence of the crimson sash on a parade.

The SgtMajor is wearing the special [old-fashioned] badge denoting that he is also a regular, seconded to TF/VF duty, and almost certainly on temporary promotion from QMS or CSgt.

[Muerrisch]

another clue that these are regulars attached, is that they have no VF/TF proficiency or efficiency stars on the right cuff.

As for the officers, I yield to others!

[anthony]

Thanks Andrew-very useful.

Grumpy,

Thanks-that clears up a lot-I was wondering where the stars were.

The Sergeant wearing the Assistant Instructor of Musketry badge-is this because the badge is worn on the upper left arm instead of upper right? Or is he wearing the same badge on both arms? How do you spot the 'Assistant' in the badge.

Pardon my ignorance if I have missed something!

Anthony

[pbrydon]

It might be "mourning" arm bands the officers are wearing as per Dress Regulations 1900 para 19

P.B.

[Muerrisch]

Thanks Andrew-very useful.

Grumpy,

Thanks-that clears up a lot-I was wondering where the stars were.

The Sergeant wearing the Assistant Instructor of Musketry badge-is this because the badge is worn on the upper left arm instead of upper right? Or is he wearing the same badge on both arms? How do you spot the 'Assistant' in the badge.

Pardon my ignorance if I have missed something!

Anthony

I believe CSgts were 'Musketry Instructors', not sergeants.

Indded, in some specialisms, NCOs however exalted were only Assistants [to officers]. I have signalling in mind.

I believe your man has same badge on both arms.

[anthony]

P.B.

Not thought of the mourning idea-worth an investigation. Will check my sources!

Grumpy-excellent that clears things up a bit. As always a real education!

Anthony

[squirrel]

Funeral parade would perhaps explain the C Sgt wearing a sword and sword belt.

[Graham Stewart]

Mourning band worn by officers would probably suggest the death of Edward VII.

[Graham Stewart]

Certainly Terriers in evidence as shown is post 3 - look behind the officer and to the right - cuff of man in rear shows a large selection of stars.

[anthony]

The men behind are Terriers...I have seen the sgt at the back in the centre in other pics of the period with 5 stars and believe he may be a Sgt Bob Hannan who worked at the Barrow Shipyard but not 100% certain. The other two on the left and right I'm not sure of. I believe the officer on the left may be a Major Barrett of Millom.

None of the NCOs seem to be wearing the mourning bands (if thats what they are). Would it be normal for the officers to do this but not the NCOS and men?

Thanks again,

Anthony

[MBrockway]

It might be "mourning" arm bands the officers are wearing as per Dress Regulations 1900 para 19

P.B.

I think PB's right with this: there's a picture on pp.16-17 in Jill Knight's Civil Service Rifles book¹ of the battalion officers in mourning for the death of Edward VII in 1910 and they are wearing armbands exactly like these.

Cheers,

Mark

¹The Civil Service Rifles in the Great War - 'All Bloody Gentlemen' by Jill Knight (Pen & Sword) 2004

[Graham Stewart]

The men behind are Terriers...I have seen the sgt at the back in the centre in other pics of the period with 5 stars and believe he may be a Sgt Bob Hannan who worked at the Barrow Shipyard but not 100% certain. The other two on the left and right I'm not sure of. I believe the officer on the left may be a Major Barrett of Millom.

None of the NCOs seem to be wearing the mourning bands (if thats what they are). Would it be normal for the officers to do this but not the NCOS and men?

Thanks again,

Anthony

On the death of a sovereign only officers are entitled to wear a mourning band, which I believe is covered under KR's, but being away from home I haven't got mine to hand. Also among TF units some the most senior NCO post's were held by regulars on secondment, again something which is dealt with in Regulations for the TF.

[MBrockway]

On the death of a sovereign only officers are entitled to wear a mourning band, which I believe is covered under KR's, but being away from home I haven't got mine to hand. Also among TF units some the most senior NCO post's were held by regulars on secondment, again something which is dealt with in Regulations for the TF.

... and the picture in Jill's CSR book only shows the battalion officers, so no help either way on the NCO angle I'm afraid.

Presumably the distinction is rooted in the officers holding a commission from the sovereign.

Cheers,

Mark

[daggers]

The same mourning armbands were worn by officers after the death of King George VI in 1952, causing some consternation in a VERY new 2/Lt who had just left OCS and not yet arrived at his destined unit with pips.

D