At what stage did acting or temp rank get to wear the insignia

[27thBN]

Assuming the insignia was available when an officer was made acting say Captain or temp Captain when did they get the extra pip ? Immediately ..30 days later or only on temp position and not acting rank .Curious as the vast majority of officers at some stage were Acting/Temp. What rank did they wear? some were acting for 1 month some 6 months and same with Temp .I am not talking about getting a Temporary commission as many were Temp for the entire war just the promotion they got later .

Thanks MC

[centurion]

As a matter of practicality if one was leading others and giving orders in an active environment it would be important to have some indication of your effective rank visible so on those grounds ASAP would seem to apply.

[dutchbarge]

There seems to have been a great deal of leeway in regards to the display of rank. One of my uniform ensembles belonged to Capt. C.A.E.Fitzroy, 2/RWF. Although he was never gazetted higher than a Captain, he wore Major's cuff lace and crowns from 1916 thru 1920 while ADC to the G.G. Union of S.A. I've got correspondence between him and the War Office bickering back and forth about why, in light of his service as a Major for over 4 years, he was not entitled to that rank. The W.O. states that while it is customary for local authorities to grant a temporary 'enhancement' of rank this is in no way deemed a permanent promotion. Still, his tunic (which he was wearing when he mustered out) displays major's rank.

Another example is the uniform ensemble of Lt. Col. Troyte-Bullock, 7/SLI. He was never gazetted higher than Brevet Lt. Col. (Jan.1918) however while he assumed temporary command of 60th Brigade during the illness of its commander (Nov.1917), he put up Colonel's insignia which are still on the tunic in my collection.

I've several other examples of officers whose tunics still bear their temporary rank insignia, presumably not having removed pips or lace to reflect their 'army rank' when they mustered out.

A book could be written on the subject. There were evidently many various and nebulous ranks. Army rank, Regimental rank, Local rank, acting, temporary, probationary, additional, 'locally enhanced' etc. I've read several explanations all of which leave more questions than they answer.

If you ever figure it out please explain it to me!

Cheers, Bill

[27thBN]

There seems to have been a great deal of leeway in regards to the display of rank. One of my uniform ensembles belonged to Capt. C.A.E.Fitzroy, 2/RWF. Although he was never gazetted higher than a Captain, he wore Major's cuff lace and crowns from 1916 thru 1920 while ADC to the G.G. Union of S.A. I've got correspondence between him and the War Office bickering back and forth about why, in light of his service as a Major for over 4 years, he was not entitled to that rank. The W.O. states that while it is customary for local authorities to grant a temporary 'enhancement' of rank this is in no way deemed a permanent promotion. Still, his tunic (which he was wearing when he mustered out) displays major's rank.

Another example is the uniform ensemble of Lt. Col. Troyte-Bullock, 7/SLI. He was never gazetted higher than Brevet Lt. Col. (Jan.1918) however while he assumed temporary command of 60th Brigade during the illness of its commander (Nov.1917), he put up Colonel's insignia which are still on the tunic in my collection.

I've several other examples of officers whose tunics still bear their temporary rank insignia, presumably not having removed pips or lace to reflect their 'army rank' when they mustered out.

A book could be written on the subject. There were evidently many various and nebulous ranks. Army rank, Regimental rank, Local rank, acting, temporary, probationary, additional, 'locally enhanced' etc. I've read several explanations all of which leave more questions than they answer.

If you ever figure it out please explain it to me!

Cheers, Bill

Bill yes i agree or i would not be asking the question ASAP as said makes sense but local rank ,etc gets hard 3/4 of all of my officer medal groups all have had temp or acting and i guess its a feeling that i picture him in the field with ex pips or crown and pips on shoulders .I am trying to get a feeling for how he presented himself during the war rank wise .I know there are many variables but just asking for forum members opinions and in your case actual uniforms to add proof to what rank they displayed in the field.

Thanks both MC

[barrieduncan]

An example from an actual war diary (10th Bn Scottish Rifles)

Nov 26th 1916:

Major STANLEY CLARK arrived to take over command of the Bn. in succession to Colonel USSHER.

...

Dec 3rd 1916:

Major A. C. STANLEY CLARK authorised to wear badge of Lt. Col. pending confirmation.

I believe this officer was a substansive Captain in rank of Temporary Major, promoted to Temporary Lieutenant Colonel. Certainly after the war he reverted to the rank of Captain (with two DSOs and the Legion of Honour).

Barrie

[Muerrisch]

There seems to have been a great deal of leeway in regards to the display of rank. One of my uniform ensembles belonged to Capt. C.A.E.Fitzroy, 2/RWF. Although he was never gazetted higher than a Captain, he wore Major's cuff lace and crowns from 1916 thru 1920 while ADC to the G.G. Union of S.A. I've got correspondence between him and the War Office bickering back and forth about why, in light of his service as a Major for over 4 years, he was not entitled to that rank. The W.O. states that while it is customary for local authorities to grant a temporary 'enhancement' of rank this is in no way deemed a permanent promotion. Still, his tunic (which he was wearing when he mustered out) displays major's rank.

This may be of interest, from my 'Duty Done'

Lieutenant Charles Alfred Euston FitzRoy has a PRO file WO 339 8026. His father was the Reverend Lord Charles FitzRoy MA JP, Clerk in Holy Orders, Rector of Euston with Barnham, Thetford, Norfolk. Charles senior was successively Chaplain in Ordinary to Queen Victoria and Honorary Chaplain to King Edward VII and King George V. He was fourth son of the 7th Duke of Grafton. Charles junior was born 4 June 1892 and educated at Wellington College. Despite having ‘ethmoiditis and chronic frontal sinusitis’ since boyhood, together with ‘inflammation of the nasal cavities of long standing’ resulting in two surgical operations, he applied for the RMC in 1910 and was commissioned into RWF 20 September 1911. Service in India with 2 RWF followed. He appeared as a Lieutenant [seniority 27 December 1912] in the Malta photograph. He went to war commanding III Platoon, A Company. He entirely escaped the notice of TWTIK’s contributors and did not himself add to that chronicle. Unsurprisingly, he became ill under the stresses of active service and reported sick with severe headaches and fainting 18 October 1914 at Vlamertinghe. He was invalided home but surgery was discounted as he was diagnosed as haemophiliac in addition to his other very real disabilities. He became a Temporary Captain 15 November 1914, made substantive 1 November 1915.

Assessed as permanently unfit for active service he was sent to serve the Governor General of South Africa as Aide de Camp [ADC] from 19 February 1916 to 24 September 1920. FitzRoy’s record of service, officially ‘satisfactory’ included note of 1914 star, clasp and two roses, together with the British War Medal and Victory Medal He was Mentioned and thanked for his later rôle as Comptroller Major FitzRoy by the departing Governor General on 3 September 1920 and resigned his commission 13 January 1921. He married thrice, in 1918, 1924 and 1944, the first two marriages ending with the death of his wife. In or about 1921 Agents Cox and Co. attempted to recover the sum of £22..6..6 over-issued to him and reported their failure to the War Office. In 1936 FitzRoy succeeded to the title as 10th Duke of Grafton and his agent had protracted correspondence with the War Office over his career details and any pension rights. It was ruled that he had never been a substantive major and that, as his disabilities were not caused by service, there was no entitlement to pension or gratuity. A note of absurdity appears in his file: on 8 December 1938, W Young and Sons, Fish and Whitebait Merchants, London, wrote to the War Office regarding an unpaid debt incurred by one FitzRoy living at 113 Eaton Terrace. In reply they were told that ‘there is no information to identify this officer as the subject of the inquiry’ and the correspondence was filed. FitzRoy became a Deputy Lieutenant for Suffolk and a JP. He died on Remembrance Day, 11 November 1970.

[dutchbarge]

Hello Grumpy,

Yes indeed! You were kind enough to point me in the right direction regarding Fitzroy some time ago. Attached are several documents, copies of which are in my ever expanding dossier on Fitzroy. He was a remarkable fellow. One would have thought it only sporting that as an ailing haemophilliac who had survived the retreat from Mons, a husband who survived 3 wives (he was a thrice a widower), a father who survived his 2nd son Michael, (who died in the Solomon Island in WW2) and a Duke who survived an irate fishmonger, the War Dept. would have found a way to bend the rules a bit and give him his Majority. Perhaps the fact that despite his health and travails he lived to the ripe old age of 78 was consolation enough.

I have a copy of your excellent book, it was b****y difficult to find living in New Mexico but well worth the effort.

Cheers, BIll

[dutchbarge]

And another......

[dutchbarge]

And one more...sorry about the poor quality of the fotos....I don't have a scanner only a 1 pixel hand held camera. Still the replies do reveal that others ( Gov.Gens for instance) besides the War Dept could grant the right to wear rank insignia above anything published in the LG.

Cheers, BIll

[27thBN]

Great stuff thanks both especially that the LG could be left out in the proof of local rank and temp rank as usually no LG it did not happen

Thanks MC