Derby Scheme recruits

[Chris_Baker]

Once a man had attested under the Derby Scheme and accepted for service, he was placed into Section B Army Reserve. Was he paid the same way as a regular who had completed colour service and was then transferred to the same Section B?

[carolm]

Hi Chris,

I recently made a study of recruitment under the Derby Scheme using information from newspapers of the times, mainly The Scotsman and the Times and believe a man was paid only for one day. The following is from my notes:

"If a man chose to attest under the Derby system he would be assigned to a Group based on his year of birth..., and then placed in the Reserves – specifically Army Reserve Class B - without pay and allowances with the exception that he received one day’s pay at infantry rates, (which The Times newspaper placed at 2/9d), for the day of attestation . The new recruit would then be allowed to return to his home and his employment until such time as his Group was called up."

I'm not quite sure of the usual conditions for men transferring to the Reserves, but I thought they received a regular allowance. I will check through my paper work as I know I have a mass of information on this (somewhere!)

Regards

Carolyn

[Chris_Baker]

Thanks, Carolyn. That's excellent info. Regulars going to Section B did get paid. I suspected Derbyites did not, and other than the penny you have confirmed it.

[MelPack]

Carolyn

Did your research stretch to a schedule of the dates upon which the various age groups were called up?

Mel

[carolm]

Hello Mel.

Yes I have those dates. They are taken from The Scotsman and The Times and I noticed that in some cases they differ slightly from ones I have seen in later books on the subject. I'm afraid I became a bit obsessive about some of the details (colour of the Procolmation paper etc) but all the details, including the various forms used, can be found at:

http://gordonhighlanders.carolynmorrisey.com/Recruitment.htm

It is headed "Territorial Recruitment under the Derby Scheme" but is not just about Territorials.

I haven't got around to loading up the next page which has similar information for the Conscription (Class) period. If you need those dates let me know.

Hope this is of use.

Carolyn

[Guest]

Hope this is of use.

Carolyn

Very useful, and thanks for posting.

Cheers Mike

[MelPack]

Carolyn

That is a highly informative and a very interesting piece. Well done!

Many thanks for posting the link - I have bookmarked it for future reference.

Mel

[Chris_Baker]

Great piece of work, Carolyn.

[Guest]

Just to say again Carolyn, great work. You have made quite a confusing subject ( for me ) very understandable, I will refer to it often. Particularly delighted to see " Aberfeldy " mentioned, as I am researching the men on the Memorial. I will have another look at the Scotsman Archives online to see if I can identify any of the individuals.

Cheers Mike

[ianjonesncl]

The process feels as if the recruits were taking "taking the kings shilling". Once accepted they were liable for service.

[imd6662]

The process feels as if the recruits were taking "taking the kings shilling". Once accepted they were liable for service.

Absolutely brilliant thread which solved a riddle for me.

A couple of years ago, I retrieved some of items relating to my great-uncle's war service. Among them was a 1916 florin (two shilling coin) mounted to be worn as a brooch. According to my great-uncle's surviving youngest sister, their mother wore this from then on -- presumably a kind of good luck talisman. It didn't work unfortunately and he went missing at Messines in 1917.

Jim had been a pre-war territorial but was out of time before the war started, and then re-enlisted at almost the last minute under the Derby scheme. Being in Group 2 he was called up virtually immediately.

I'd always wondered about the traditional "king's shilling" but couldn;t reconcile this with the florin (even allowing for inflation) until I ran across this thread in which Carolyn's research reports the one day's pay as 2/9. I'm sure this piece is the florin he received. No idea what happened to the 9d but from what I've heard he probably bought sweets for his sister.

I'll post a picture in the next day or so.

Thanks Carolyn.

[Ken Lees]

Excellent! That clarifies a number of queries I had in relation to the Derby Scheme, dates of enlistment/mobilisation and the various forms seen in service files.

I have bookmarked the site and will be back to read more.

Many thanks for posting.

Ken

[Phil996]

Hi Carolyn

Thanks for posting this - it has helped to shed light on why my grandfather attested when he did. He was 31, recently married with one child and another on the way. He was a fully-apprenticed bricklayer presumably with a good job and reasonable pay. So why would he 'volunteer' and not just wait to see if he got away with it and was not called up? He attested on the 12th December 1915 so he was one of the great last-minute rush, which I hadn't realised before. Presumably this was to defer call up until his group was called and retain some choice over which regiment he served with, as opposed to being called up at short notice and going where he was told.

Do you know -

Were men who had not attested and were therefore 'deemed to have enlisted' just called up at any time or did it correspond with the dates for the age groups?

Were the age groups and the call-up dates published so that men could work out their likely call-up date?

Were men in a particular group actually called up on the published dates or could it be some time afterwards (leaving aside those who appealed?

And finally, were there any other advantages to attesting and then going home until call-up rather than waiting to be conscripted under the 1916 scheme?

If you can shed any light on these points I'd be grateful and thanks again for your very useful and interesting research

Best wishes

Phil

[carolm]

Hi Phil,

In response to your questions:

1. As far as I know, men who did not sign up under the Derby scheme by 1st March 1916 did not have to do anything. Through the National Registration that had taken place in 1915 they were "known to authorities" and all placed automatically in the Reserves on 2nd March. They were then called up in their Classes unless they were "Starred" - had reserved occupations - or otherwise appealed.

2. Dates: I don't believe all the Group dates were published in advance - i.e. your grandfather attesting on 12th December as a married man wouldn't have known when his Group would have been called. This was because it was generally believed that there was a firm commitment by the government that no married man would be called up until all the eligible single men had gone. So your grandfather, like many others, was probably willing to go and do his duty, but to paraphrase St Augustine: "Lord (Derby), make me a soldier - but not yet."

This is substantiated by the following story from The Times 13th March 1916:

"The acceleration of the gathering in of the Derby groups has taken the married men, particularly those over 30, by surprise...Basing their calculations on the rate at which the single men between 19 and 30 were summoned, many married men between 30 and 40 had not expected to receive their notices before the early days of the summer. The desire of the War Office to get every available man into training as quickly as possible is no doubt prompted by pressing reason...During the next few weeks there is going to be a great deal of difficulty in making arrangements for carrying on or breaking up homes and anxiety to learn the intentions of the Government in regard to the financial obligations of married men who are shortly to become soldiers grows acute. Unless state relief is granted for rent and other charges thousands of houses in the London suburbs alone must be vacated. It is stated that removal contractors are already overwhelmed with orders."

Dates for Single men were first published, as far as I know, on Monday 20th December, with men in Groups 2-5 to report on 20th January.

The first dates for men in Classes under the Army Service Act were published on 9th February so that call-up could begin in early March.

3. Regarding actual enlistment date: As I understand it, a man - who was in effect a Reservist - was supposed to attend for call up on the date specified unless he had a very good reason or had a certificate of exempion.

The Proclamations stated: "A Reservist who fails without reasonable cause or excuse to comply with these directions will be guilty of an offence under the Reserve Forces Act 1892."

This applied to both voluntary and conscriped men.

In addition, on the letter sent to each man individually, advising of time and place to attend, the following was included:

"Particular attention is called to Section 15 of the Reserve Forces Act which provides that where the man belonging to the Army Reserve is called out on permanent service and such man without leave lawfully granted or such sickness or other reasonable excuse ...fails to appear ...he shall be guilty of deserting within the meaning of Section 12, or of absenting himself without leave within the meaning of Section 15 of the Army Act."

However health and occupation obviously affected this. My grandfather was "deemed to have enlisted" in 1916 when he was about 18, but was not actually called up until April 1918, because he was a coal miner.

Regarding the preferance between volunteering and waiting to be conscripted - I'm not quite sure of the advantages of one over the other, except men attesting under the Derby scheme generally appeared to be able to request, within reason, a particular unit. Perhaps there was some personal prestige in being a volunteer. I think there was a thread about this somewhere.

Hope this helps

Carolyn

[purley]

I cannot comment on the pay of men who attested but the scehem was far more complex than seems to be described above. The Reading experience was that a committee was established and their first job was to compile a list of all the men in the twon who were potentially eligigible to serve - culled from voters lists, doctors lists, door to door canvassing and several other sources - a leaflet was delivered to 65000 households requiring every man to either report to the town hall or to account for himself.

The campaign proper opened on 28th October, by 6th November the canvassers had dealt with 677 men, by 13th November 2554, by 20 November 5100, by 27th November 6300 and by 3rd December 7801. They were called to attend an interview at the Small Town Hall and on the peak day no less than 1400 were seen.

The following results were obtained:-

single married total

Enlisted for immediate service 462 248 710

Enlisted for B Reserve 622 1218 1840

Promised immediate service 0 0 0

Promised to join B Reserve 557 1132 1689

-----------------------------------

1642 2597 4239

rejected 979 991 1970

-----------------------------------

net total enlisted or offered 2620 3588 6208

------------------------------------

Foreigners 58

Dead or over age 90

Moved and traced to another area 198

Moved and not traced 135

-------------------------------------

total not interviewed 481

-------------------------------------

Think themselves unfit 223 185 408

War work, Munitions, Railway, Marine 59 78 137

Civic servants, Post Office, Police 11 51 62

Refused by Employer 26 20 46

-------------------------------------

Total not recruited but otherwise willing 319 304 623

-------------------------------------

Set conditions 27 103 130

Unwilling with no sufficient reason 213 498 711

-------------------------------------

Total unwilling 240 601 841

-------------------------------------

Summary

Single Married Total

Enlisted or Promised 1642 2597 4239

Rejected 979 991 1970

Not available 481

Otherwise willing 319 304 623

Not willing 240 601 841

-------------------------------------

Total Canvassed 3180 4493 8154

-------------------------------------

The deadline set by Lord Derby was the 12th December but Reading were one of the first to complete and had their report in his hands on December 6th. The men who had either agreed to enlistment either immediate or promised or join the B Reserve were attested on the spot and given a choice of regiments although not all got their choice.

I am not too sure that tables will come out OK - I always seem to have problems so hop it is not too much gibberish.

[carolm]

Hi Purley,

I certainly agree it is a very complex subject with a great number of exceptions and variations.

I must admit that my interest is mainly with the "paperwork" - ie the forms used etc and the timetable for enlisting, rather than the scheme as a whole. However your details regarding Redding were very interesting.

I was particularly interested in: "a leaflet was delivered to 65000 households requiring every man to either report to the town hall or to account for himself." The Derby Scheme was touted as "voluntary" but the men of Redding seem to have been forced (required) to attend an interview. I wonder if this happened everywhere?

Carolyn

[Phil996]

Hi Carolyn

Thanks very much for your detailed reply - your research has certainly thrown a lot of light on something that has puzzled me since I started researching my grandfather's service. I've vacillated between thinking he was a patriotic type who wanted to do his bit despite his relatively comfortable situation at home and thinking he attested at the last minute to avoid an even worse fate than being in the infantry. But from what you say, maybe he was a hero after all!

For the record, he was 22071 Pte Alfred Waller of the 7th East Surreys, captured at Cambrai in Nov 1917. He survived the war and I knew him until he died at 81 but like many others he never spoke about the war.

Thanks again.

Phil

[carolm]

Hi Phil,

It couldn't be easy to leave a pregnant wife and child, no matter how patriotic he felt. But like so many others he served, and he well deserves to be regarded as a hero, regardless of why or when he enlisted.

The quiet reserve of the men from that war, while a drawback for family and researchers, often seems admirable in its dignity compared to the "tell all, sell to the highest bidder" attitude of today.

Good luck with your research.

Carolyn

[Phil996]

The quiet reserve of the men from that war, while a drawback for family and researchers, often seems admirable in its dignity compared to the "tell all, sell to the highest bidder" attitude of today.

H Carolyn

I couldn't agree more - I can't stand the cult of vapid so-called celebrities who as often as not are just famous for their bad behaviour. Noel Gallagher v Noel Chavasse - no contest! (Or do I mean Liam Gallagher?)

Best wishes

Phil

[imd6662]

Here's the "king's florin" as promised.

[kevinrowlinson]

I don't know whether it is readily known but I have recently seen a "Certificate to be completed by the officer commanding a unit in which attested men have undergone voluntary training prior to being called up for service." This was army form W. 3256. If it is of any interest it may be seen in the records of 127013 Scales, Richard RGA. First time I have seen a Derby Scheme man having training whilst on reserve.

Kevin

[carolm]

Hi Kevin,

I'd never seen one of those forms before, so thanks for pointing it out. I think this voluntary training had something to do with the National Reserves, which I believe were organised by the County Associations and used to guard the coastline and such. The form shows that Richard Scales was a member of a "Volunteer (or is it Voluntary?) Regiment".

I admit I don't know much about them but, during my research into the Derby Scheme I did come across a couple of references to men being encouraged to train, free of charge, with the National Reserves which they were awaiting call up to their Groups.

Richard Scales had been training for 2 years when the form was signed in 1916, so he wasn't just awaiting call-up but must have been a member since the war began (at least).

I've attached an article from The Scotsman of 22/12/1915 that encourages men to train with the National Reserves. I hope it's legible as I had to reduce the size.

To further confuse the whole issue of the Derby Scheme and when it ended etc an article from 8th September 1916 states:

"As a further extension of the Derby Scheme, young men in their 17th year now have the opportunity of voluntarily attesting in what will be known as Group B, thus avoiding being conscripts. The proclamation giving notice of the formation of this group was widely posted last night...young men attesting in this new group will be able to train if they desire, but the training would not be compulsory."

Carolyn

[dobbin]

Thank you Carolyn you have cleared up a lot of queries for me to not least why a family man of 38 with 5 children wanted to go to war in 1917. You have set this out in the clearest form I have seen it A lot of work for you from which we have all benefited. Colin

[carolm]

Thanks Colin,

It's good to be able help for a change. I've been the recipient of much assistance from forum members over the years.

Cheers

Carolyn