Simplified (utility) SD jacket lining

[Grovetown]

Just ordered John Bodsworth's book looking forward to getting it.

As will I, but at 66 quid, I'm not sure "looking forward" is quite the expression.

GT.

[Joe Sweeney]

GT,

Yes a bit of a wallet shock--but could well be worth it.

I'm getting mine through WD Militatira which had some good shots as a bonus-teaser.

http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop/viewphot...676&phqu=10

Although on view 7-Fig 7, I wish the caption was shown as the SD cap looks decidedly post-war and looks to be a cap that has surfaced in at least one Schiffer publication as original with very good added markings or it came from the same source--or is being included as a gauge. If it is being shown as WWI its very difficult to keep even the best of works error free--I don't think there ghas ever been an error free work (I include myself)

What I really liked is the picture of the sealed pattern label SD pattern 9739 0f 6 Nov 1917. This jacket is identical to the 8407 and only had manufacturing instruction changed to "All machine Sewn".

By the looks of the photos this looks be a very good work and I like Scottish stuff, I don't collect Officer stuff but I still have an interest.

Joe Sweeney

[wainfleet]

Joe

That cap on page 7 is definitely not of Great War vintage. Compton Sons and Webb did not merge until some time after the war. It looks like a doctored 60s cap to me.

Regards,

W.

[Wardog]

Good bit of info Wainfleet. I have searched on the web for info. on Compton sons & Webb without much luck as they don't have a seperate identity now. Regards, Paul.

[Krithia]

Received my copy of the Bodsworth book yesterday and so far its not too bad, the cap is an obvious mistake and has an added "WD 1917" stamp to it, similar may I say to a Military UK based dealer who repeatedly sells items on t'internet e'bay with an array of badly and recently applied WD stamps. I'm still reading so will comment in full later, but so far its well worth the money.

You can get it for £60 (incl P&P) direct from MLRS Books.

[Joe Sweeney]

W,

I think I know that cap and its route to John. That cap has been aroound quite awhile and has been published before in another book. I'm sure both books will be used as justifications of originality of these doctored caps.

Krithia,

Look forward to the review--all else looks superlative by the teaser photo's and I don't think I'll see my copy for quite some time.

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

Good to see the photos at last, Peter. It's practically identical to mine, which is also slightly thinner material than the usual SD. Mine has a W^D over a letter D, but there is no number above it, which is odd but all seems ok. It has the remains of a Royal Army Clothing Factory label, though the date bit hasn't survived.

W.

W.,

I don't think that the acceptance stamp is all that odd given the dates.

I published the followig in French in 2005--its not based on finding the holy grail of RACD acceptance stamps only on observation and a few concrete primary references (I think your code is commonly related to the RACF or an inspector from also inspecting Jackets coming in from Contracts):

"Two types of acceptance stamps could be found on jackets prior to the outbreak of the Great War. For articles manufactured under contract the acceptance stamp consisted of the War Department broad arrow over a number and year. Since articles of clothing were only viewed at the RACD depot at Pimlico this might correspond to the month and year of acceptance. The other pre-war stamp was for articles made at the Royal Army Clothing Factory (RACF) and this only consisted of the broad arrow with a letter code. The nature of the acceptance stamps changed as the war progressed. Many varieties can be found on articles manufactured during the winter of 1914/1915 but by the time approval of RACD pattern 8407/1915 a system was put in place to reflect the greatly expanded inspection system. This modified acceptance stamps now consisted of a number code over the War Department broad arrow over a letter code. The number and letter code can be found reversed, but this may reflect a late war change, as most articles that have a letter over the War Department broad arrow over a number are late war or post war dated. Although no definitive meanings of these codes have been found some conclusions may be drawn. Commonly encountered letter codes include L, M, N, O. and P. These letter codes appear to correspond to types of commodities. Conjecturally, these codes may refer to specific commodities at specific clothing depots tasked to receive those commodities. The letter O is commonly found on articles of waterproofed clothing, e.g. capes, waders, etc. The letter’s L, M, and N are commonly found on articles of Service Dress uniforms and the letter P on caps. The number code may correspond to a specific inspector at a clothing depot designated by a letter. This is likely since definitive evidence has been located that states individual inspectors were identifiable by the stamps. As for the War Department, there actually was no separate distinct part or branch of the British government called the War Department. In this context it is used generically to describe any department under the War Office or Army."

Joe Sweeney

[wainfleet]

Good bit of info Wainfleet. I have searched on the web for info. on Compton sons & Webb without much luck as they don't have a seperate identity now. Regards, Paul.

Paul

The wartime name for this company was J Compton and Sons. I have had wartime kit made by them through my hands, though unfortunately in those days I didn't keep photos. The company was established as JC&S in Swindon in 1877 and is still recorded as such in 1908, though this is all I can find on them on the Net. But all you really need to know is that any kit with the JCS&W name is not of Great War vintage.

In my early collecting days, in the 80s, I was also fooled by these caps which were around with fake dates even then. But the American cloth lining of the 1960s tends to be shinier, more plasticy, robust and generally new-looking than that of the Great War. The only real way to learn though is to see collections and handle the original kit. It was difficult to do that in those days as there weren't many collections outside museums, but at least the competition wasn't anything like as massive as it is now.

Joe

Thanks for that excellent information on the acceptance markings. I've seen the letter over number configuration just once, on a denim cap with all-cotton liner dated 1918. IIRC the letter was a T.

Regards,

W.

[Joe Sweeney]

Paul,

There are other ways of telling that this cap is not Great War by never seeing the interior.

Namely the peak size and a very visible stitch only found on post Great War SD Caps.

The Stitch is the easiest giveaway for those caps that have had the peaks modified to look like Great War peaks and have had reasonable bogus markings added to the interior. I've seen several of these go through dealers in the last several years none through Ebay that I noticed.

W.

I'm amazed at how long these caps have had bogus dates added. My first cap I bought around 1982 is 1918 dated and it is not.

Anyone want to buy a 1918 dated SD cap cheap?

Joe Sweeney

[Vimyridge]

The Stitch is the easiest giveaway for those caps that have had the peaks modified to look like Great War peaks and have had reasonable bogus markings

Joe

What stitch????

Do tell.

Thanks

Roger

[Mike C]

Joe

What stitch????

Do tell.

Thanks

Roger

Other identifiers? I have a cap made by "L. Silberston & Sons, Ltd." It has a broad arrow and "1918" stamped in white. There are other markings, but very difficult to read. I've been told one can tell by the length (depth?) of the visor. Anyone care to share the correct size, measured from front edge to under the badge?

Thanks for any information.

Mike C

[Krithia]

A review of John's book is here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=143321. Ignore the SD cap faux pas, everything else more than makes up for it, and as Joe has said, no work is error free! Any author willing to disagree please feel free to comment! Enjoy :-)

[Andrew Upton]

Other identifiers? I have a cap made by "L. Silberston & Sons, Ltd." It has a broad arrow and "1918" stamped in white. There are other markings, but very difficult to read. I've been told one can tell by the length (depth?) of the visor. Anyone care to share the correct size, measured from front edge to under the badge?

Thanks for any information.

Funny thing, just this Friday I was looking at a dress cap made by this maker - very clearly dated 1956. Of course, they could still have been in business after 40 years, but that would make me suspicious.

[john gregory]

A real one

Inside

Side

Back

[Krithia]

I always thought "L. Silberston & Sons, Ltd." was WWII onwards, they made Dennisson Smocks in the 1940's and lots of headgear, but I have seen nothing WW1 by them. Without seeing the hat in question with stamp it is hard to tell, but this manufacture as far as I know was not around during the 1914-18 period.

[Vimyridge]

A good example of one of these fakes... (I do not own this cap)

As many of you have pointed out...

The first give away being the size and shape of the visor

and the obvious post Great war chin strap found on many 1939 dated Canadian SD caps.

Then there is what I call the "FLASH" test. when exposed to a camera flash, colors will appear

differently. You can see the date stamp and large acceptance mark have appeared white whereas the

makers name is still a bit yellow. I'm sure in daylight or artificial lighting, the makers stamp and dates look the same.

In reply to Mike C. (hope you don't mind me snatching these for this post

Regarding your question, I've measured all my Cdn great war SD caps, and if you measure from the tip of the visor back towards the edge of the cap crown, they all measure 44mm ( 1 3/4" )

Roger

[Vimyridge]

[Grovetown]

GT,

Yes I would like to see that label. I believe these were classified as class "W" in issue scales.

Joe Sweeney

Hi Joe

Herewith. Hi-res versions emailed to you. You mention the 'W' - wonder if the background R is significant here.

Best wishes,

GT.

[Joe Sweeney]

GT,

Much apprectiated--love these genuine paper labels.

Joe Sweeney