Identifying a Uniform (If possible)

[sgmcgregor]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this website so hopefully I am posting in the right place.

I have a photograph of William Green (born 1870, died 1939) and his wife Catherine Bremner. They married in 1903.

The question I want to ask is whether there is any way of identifying the uniform William Green is wearing. I know the photgraph must be 1903 or later in date as that is when they married.

I'm assuming that he wasn't in the regular forces although I'm open to being proven wrong. Was there an upper age limit to enlisting, or was it purely down to how healthy someone was and whether they could pass a medical?

Also, as the photograph is most likely to date to the period for World War I, was there a 'home force' or an equivalent of the 'home guard' as we know it from World War II?

William was born in Wick, Caithness, Scotland and as far as I can tell this is the place he spent all of his life. So maybe this would give a clue as to what 'unit' he might have been linked to.

Any help and advice would be most greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading,

Steven McGregor (very confused)

[trooper66]

The good conduct stripes would indicate that he was a regular soldier ,sorry cant see enough of his belt bucle ti identify his regiment. Caithness was the recruiting area for the Seaforth Highlanders in WW1, who's badge was a stags head, this regiment did not have a "Home service battalion"

[sgmcgregor]

The good conduct stripes would indicate that he was a regular soldier ,sorry cant see enough of his belt bucle ti identify his regiment. Caithness was the recruiting area for the Seaforth Highlanders in WW1, who's badge was a stags head, this regiment did not have a "Home service battalion"

Trooper66,

Thanks for the response.

I've rechecked the original scan of the photo as I did scan at the highest resolution but the belt buckle is too unclear to be worth posting by itself. It's either over-exposed in the original or it may just be that the light has caught it in such a way as to make it unclear.

I have no record of William ever having served in the regular forces, but that doesn't mean he didn't. I'll have to try and dig a little more to see what else I can find.

Thanks again,

Steven

[Muerrisch]

The good conduct stripes would indicate that he was a regular soldier ,sorry cant see enough of his belt bucle ti identify his regiment.

Yes, I would have agreed until last year!

TF certainly entitled from 1916 under same rules as regulars, and the AO that said that MIGHT be reiterating an older instruction.

Either way, minimum 12 years service with Good Conduct.

[truthergw]

His two local regiments were Seaforths and Cameron Highlanders but both were kilted. I doubt if an old soldier in a kilted regiment would pose for a photograph without wearing his kilt.

[squirrel]

The jacket appears to have rifle patches but no pocket pleats...................................a bit odd............

[sgmcgregor]

Hello all,

Thanks to everyone for replying. Everyone is so helpful. I have a lot of family members who served, both during World War 1 and World War 2, but there are many more who served during world War 1.

I've shot off at a tangent (again!) and am now researching a regular soldier Donald Dallas who served with the 1st Seaforths. From mentions in newspapers etc, he served with the Ist Seaforths in India as part of the 19th Indian Brigade, 7th Meerut Division so I'm off looking for more details on that for now.

I'll let the details about William Green sink in a bit more for now, and return to researching him. As I said I had no inkling that he served in any way in the military but then that is the whole point of going through old photos etc. Everything I can find helps me know the people more.

Of all the family that served there were a substantial number who never returned. Every Armisitce Day now has more meaning to me as I can 'remember' those who died. Although remember is really the wrong word, as I never knew any of them.

Thanks again to everyone for your interest and guidance.

Regards,

Steven

[Muerrisch]

The jacket appears to have rifle patches but no pocket pleats...................................a bit odd............

worth your bringing to Joe Sweeney's attention I think.

[sgmcgregor]

Hello everyone,

I've been continuing to do research into William Green, and although I've not located any precise records I have found a mention of him in an old local newspaper.

The newspaper of 8th August 1916 reports that his stepson, William Bremner, was wounded in France. He had been wounded previosuly on 29th November 1915. In the report it also mentions that William Bremner is the stepson of William Green who is serving as a Private in the Royal Defence Corps.

I don't know if this accounts for the uniform he is seen wearing in the above photo, but it provides another clue. Maybe some more enlightened people out there can offer an opinion?

Thanks, Steven

[Piorun]

My wife's uncle was Cameron Highlanders and they did not necessarily fight in the kilt. We have photographs of several in hospital with "British" service dress. Antony

[sgmcgregor]

My wife's uncle was Cameron Highlanders and they did not necessarily fight in the kilt. We have photographs of several in hospital with "British" service dress. Antony

Piorun,

Thanks for your comment. My Great Grandfather, George Lyon Bartlett, served with the 1/5th Seaforth Highlanders. He had been a member of the Territorial Forces before war broke out.

I have quite a few photos of him taken with his wife and daughter - studio portraits - where he is wearing trousers, which I assume is what you termed as "British service dress". I only have one photograph of him wearing the kilt, but this is from a local newspaper of the time and is very unclear. I have no images of him wearing the kilt as part of his uniform.

So this may be similar to William Green. Even if he had been part of the Seaforths either as a regular or Territorial, he may not have had any pictures taken wearing a kilt.

Steven

[Piorun]

Yes, trousers and blouse (or tunic) is what I would refer to as "standard" or "British" service dress in this context - as opposed to kilt or trews being peculiarly Scottish (perhaps Irish, too). Yours, Antony

[Tom A McCluskey]

"My wife's uncle was Cameron Highlanders and they did not necessarily fight in the kilt"

Hi Anthony,

I cannot find one instance when a conventional battalion of the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders [of the British Army] went into battle not wearing the kilt. If this is so, I would be very interested in finding out when this occurred. I hope, too, you would be able to post details of the battalion and the battle here, because it would be noteworthy.

The 9th Battalion were a Labour Battalion and went to war in conventional Service Dress, that is, wearing trousers.

The 10th Battalion were the Lovat Scouts and kept their Yeomanry Dress.

The 11th Battalion was an unusual battalion in that it was formed from mainly Englishmen and Irishmen; however, it was kilted about a month after it was formed. Plus a couple of hundred soldiers were replaced with Scotsmen.

The 2nd Battalion were in Salonika and had shorts that folded down to protect against mosquitoes, however, Fighting Order was: Boots, Kilts & ½ Puttees.

Aye

Tom McC

[headgardener]

The newspaper of 8th August 1916 reports that his stepson, William Bremner, was wounded in France. He had been wounded previosuly on 29th November 1915. In the report it also mentions that William Bremner is the stepson of William Green who is serving as a Private in the Royal Defence Corps.

I don't know if this accounts for the uniform he is seen wearing in the above photo, but it provides another clue. Maybe some more enlightened people out there can offer an opinion?

Hi Stephen, judging by his age and his uniform I'd say that he was indeed in the RDC. The shoulder title, which is barely visible, appears to be a 'block' title as usually used by Corps units (in this case 'RDC').

The RDC were a sort-of Home Guard unit made up of older men, medically down-graded men, and former regulars who were too old for front-line service (perhaps this is the reason for his long-service stripes - the RDC were purely a war-time unit so no chance of those stripes being earned solely with them).

The local home defence unit in Wick (I'm pretty sure that it was the RDC rather than the local VTC, though I'm not absolutely certain about this point) were somewhat disparagingly known as "the blin' hunner", which translates as "the blind hundred" - a not so oblique reference to the age and health of the men in their ranks.

Which paper did you find this in? I'm assuming that it was John O'Groat Journal? Is he a relative of yours? My maternal family are from that area, and were very close to the local Bremner's, one of whom was a Wiilie Bremner. It's not the same man, though; Willie was killed during WW2 while still in his 20's.

[Graham Stewart]

The RDC were a sort-of Home Guard unit made up of older men, medically down-graded men, and former regulars who were too old for front-line service (perhaps this is the reason for his long-service stripes - the RDC were purely a war-time unit so no chance of those stripes being earned solely with them).

The term would be "Home Service" as opposed to Home Guard as the RDC were still serving full-time and not part-time as were the Volunteer Force, which were the Home Guard of WWI.

[sgmcgregor]

Headgardener (sorry, I didn't see your name in your reply),

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, it was the John O'Groat Journal in which I found the reference.

The Bremner link is through his mother. William Bremner was the son of Catherine Bremner, who later married William Green in Wick. Catherine was the daughter of Ann Miller who had married a Donald Bremner in Edinburgh. Ann was from the Wick area, and her daughter, Catherine, was living in Wick with her grandparents in 1881, at the time of the census.

Steven (Thurso, Caithness)

[headgardener]

The Bremner link is through his mother. William Bremner was the son of Catherine Bremner, who later married William Green in Wick. Catherine was the daughter of Ann Miller who had married a Donald Bremner in Edinburgh. Ann was from the Wick area, and her daughter, Catherine, was living in Wick with her grandparents in 1881, at the time of the census.

I remember the brother of Willie Bremner (killed with the RAF during WW2) was Donald (or "Donnie") Bremner. Probably the same family, but a generation or 2 down the line. Donnie was the local postman during the late 1960's, possibly later. We were living in mid-Clyth at the time.

[headgardener]

Seeing this thread again reminded me that there was a picture of a group of men of the "Blin' hunner" in a book that was published about 20 years ago(?) to mark an anniversary (can't remember which) of the publishers of the 'Groat'. It was a large format paperback, and I seem to think that it may have been called "Caithness in pictures", or even "Wick in pictures", though I really can't remember. I have a copy, but it's in Scotland, and I'm not.

I seem to think that some of the photos were reproduced from a collection of old negatives that had belonged to a photographer in Wick. A good book, imho....