Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 1 March , 2003 Share Posted 1 March , 2003 The other week I was researching a Pte in the Notts & Derby, nothing out of the ordinary, except when I got to the medal roll - the man above him was 106733 Pte John R H Christie 2/6th Bn. The name sent bells ringing - yes it was the same John Reginald Halliday Christie, murderer of 10 Rillington Place fame(hanged in 1953). Interestingly I checked out a book on the case and Christie said in court that he had been gassed and invalided out - NOT according to the records he wasn't. I suppose a lie pales into insignificance compared to killing 6 women. However I digress........has anyone else had a similar experience in uncovering a well known person in their researches? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 I'm not sure how I missed this thread, but I would love to know a bit more about what you have found on this man, Ian. I do have a personal interest. I was lucky enough to know Chief Inspector Jennings - the police officer in charge of the case against Timothy Evans (who was convicted of the murder of his wife Beryl, and their baby Geraldine) - and speak with him on a number of occassions about the murders, before his death a few years ago. Evans was posthumously pardoned, when John Christie was later convicted of a large number of murders at 10 Rillington Place - in the same house, which the Evans family shared. An ex-girlfriend of mine, is the grand daughter of Ch Insp Jennings and he maintained, until his death a few years ago, that Evans was guilty. Even after his retirement, he maintained his role (especially the evidence gathered against Evans) was correct. I was given a number of notes, signed by Evans and addressed to the Inspector, thanking the police officer for his "kindness and consideration." But I also have some pitiful notes, dismissed as plain wrong by the policeman, from Evans saying that "Christie was a liar" (Evans was also very glib at telling lies) The inspector questioned Christie and later told me that because of his injuries, sustained in ww1 "in which he had been gassed - and he was later a special constable" that this was the reason he did not further investigate Christie. According to the notes I was given by the Inspector, Christie joined the army in 1916 when he was 18 years old and was gassed (which is why he didn't speak for months, and afterwards always spoke so quietly); spent time in hospital and was invalided out of the army in 1918. What have you found, Ian, that might have made the Chief Inspector look a little closer......?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Teapots, I,m amazed that Christie wasn't looked at more closely...... Christie left school at fifteen to become a police clerk, but was fired for petty theft. Next, he went to work in his father's carpet factory, but was caught stealing again and banished from home. Wounded and gassed in World War I, Christie was blind for five months and suffered hysterical loss of his voice spanning three and a half years. Marriage, in 1920, seemed to hold his bad luck at bay for a time, but in 1934 Christie was struck by an automobile, suffering serious head injuries along with other, lesser wounds. Briefly employed at the post office, he spent seven months in jail for stealing money orders. In 1938, Christie and his wife moved into a flat at 10 Rillington Place, in London. A year later, he joined the War Reserve Police, earning a bully's reputation for throwing his weight around and punishing neighbors for minor blackout offenses. I'm also amazed that, with his record, he was allowed to become a Special Constable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Having read a few books on the subject, I concluded that many, many mistakes were made in the investigations. But it's all too easy to say that 50 years later, I happily concede. Your info about Chritie being blinded and gassed backs up the info I have. But I would have thought that the police would have had access to the army records, wouldn't you....?? That's why I can't wait for Ian B to reply to this thread. The prosecution seemed quite thorough in many respects; they found out about his previous convictions, so I wonder why they didn't pick up on some of his lies about his military service......? Also if, as Ian appears to be suggesting, he wasn't gassed, he must have been fooling everyone for years with his 'soft' voice. For anyone who is interested, a film was made about this case called "10 Rillington Place" which starred Richard Attenborough as Christie. You can buy it quite cheaply in HMV and other video stores. Christie's image is preserved in Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 For anyone who is interested, a film was made about this case called "10 Rillington Place" which starred Richard Attenborough as Christie. You can buy it quite cheaply in HMV and other video stores. An excellent performance from Attenborough, and a very creepy film. I recommend it. Aside from the drama of the story, the production creates a vivid picture of hard, dull and - in some respects - squalid lives that people worked through in those days. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 On similar subject. The father of either Craig or Bentley was in the London Scottish in WW1. I have an idea that he was commisssioned, but my books are packed away. Maybe someone here has more details? In the course of robbing a warehouse in Croydon Craig and Bentley were caught by the police. The elder one had been arrested, and the younger one was cornered, but armed. The one under arrest is supposed to have shouted "Let him have it Chris!" before a policeman was shot dead. As the man who actually shot the policeman was too young to hang they hung the other one. A who had been in police custody when the offence was committed and had, arguably, been telling the armed man to surrender. Good old British justice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Peter, Wow, this is certainly a blast from the past! 106733 Pte J R H Christie Notts & Derby Regt served with the 2/6th Bn. His medal entitlement was a pair (not a Trio as in the film 10 Rillington Place). Part of his record survived and showed that he was demobbed to class Z reserve in 1919 NOT invalided out under para 392 as has been suggested. He was certainly not issued with a Silver War Badge. There is no mention of him being gassed. Slightly outside of WW1 but germane to the topic, Timothy Evans was convicted of killing his daughter NOT his wife, as is widely believed and was subsequently executed for it in 1950. The commission which looked into the case in 1966 concluded that Evans had in fact killed his wife and not his daughter so he was pardoned, as he was executed for a crime he did not commit, regardless of whether he killed his wife or not. I have some more material on Christie but have not looked for it in over 6 months and it is in the attic - I will do some digging. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Derek Bentley's father was in the army; he died when he was 69 years old - from the strain of his son's conviction. Derek B was hung in 1953, aged 19 years old. I don't know which regiment Bentley senior was in. Sorry. Chris Craig was 16 when convicted and sentenced to jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 I have some more material on Christie but have not looked for it in over 6 months and it is in the attic - I will do some digging. Thanks Ian. I really appreciate your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Derek Bentley's father was in the army; he died when he was 69 years old - from the strain of his son's conviction. Derek B was hung in 1953, aged 19 years old. I don't know which regiment Bentley senior was in. Sorry. Chris Craig was 16 when convicted and sentenced to jail. Chris Craig took part in a TV programme about the case in the mid 1990s, during which he took a polygraph test. He was asked whether he had said those infamous words, he said no and the polygraph test agreed. Now although not 100% accurate, this put an interesting slant on the case...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 As the man who actually shot the policeman was too young to hang they hung the other one. A who had been in police custody when the offence was committed and had, arguably, been telling the armed man to surrender. Not quite true! Derek Bentley was hanged because of an unfortunate series of conditions: 1 Not sure if it's still true now, but in those days the law said that if a criminal engaged in a criminal act killed an on-duty policeman trying to stop/apprehend/arrest him, then the charge would automatically be murder, with no option of any "lesser" charge, even if the killing was accidental or not intended. The police had (still have?) this special degree of protection. If the jury believed that Craig killed p.c. Miles, then they had no option but to find him guilty of murder. They did. No-one believed or suggested that Bentley had killed anyone, but Bentley was affected by a second point of law:- 2 If two or more criminals are engaged in a crime together, and one commits a murder, then they are all equally guilty of the murder. (Even the "getaway driver" if there is one, who just sits in the car with the engine running.) So having established that Craig was guilty of murder, and it being accepted that Bentley was an accomplice in the attempted burlary, then Bentley was also guilty of murder. (The jury's belief was that Bentley was not under arrest at the time.) Bentley was hanged because he was old enough, not because Craig was too young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintin1689 Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Craig's father was the medical officer of the London Scottish, either in the Great War or the interwar period. He pulled strings for the elder brother, Niven, to get into them, but Niven was no good and deserted joining a gang of deserters in Austria holding up lorries and fencing the contents. On his return to civil life he continued his career as a robber and was idolised by Christopher the younger brother. The doctrine that hanged Bentley was "the doctrine of common purpose" which ruled that if several persons combined to commit a felony they were all guilty of any subsequent felonies commited in its execution. IE if you or I agree to rob a bank and you shoot someone I cannot say I am not guilty of armed robbery cos I did n't know you were armed. It also stopped gangs of felons from getting off by all blaming each other. German law had the same doctrine expressed pthily as "went with, caught with, hanged with" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 The doctrine that hanged Bentley was "the doctrine of common purpose" which ruled that if several persons combined to commit a felony they were all guilty of any subsequent felonies commited in its execution. IE if you or I agree to rob a bank and you shoot someone I cannot say I am not guilty of armed robbery cos I did n't know you were armed. It also stopped gangs of felons from getting off by all blaming each other. German law had the same doctrine expressed pthily as "went with, caught with, hanged with" I don't have my books to hand but wasn't Bentley ESN, or whatever the correct term is these days? I'm quite sure that this whole thing was "legal", like the Poll Tax, was legal. However, if you want people to respect the law.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 The Home Secretary of the time, David Maxwell-Fife, could have commuted Bentley's sentence but did not. At the time there was a rise in youth crime particularly using guns, read about Jenkins & Holt who were hanged in 1948. Bentley it has been widely written was hanged as much for example than anything else - where have we heard this before (Stones, Goggins & Macdonald of the DLI perhaps?). Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 The Home Secretary of the time, David Maxwell-Fife, could have commuted Bentley's sentence but did not. At the time there was a rise in youth crime particularly using guns, read about Jenkins & Holt who were hanged in 1948. Bentley it has been widely written was hanged as much for example than anything else - where have we heard this before (Stones, Goggins & Macdonald of the DLI perhaps?). Ian True. There are lots of similarities. In my earlier post I mentioned what the law was - as I understand it - that led to Bentley being hanged. However there's plenty of evidence that the law wasn't applied fairly to Bentley. The trial judge informed the Jury that "a policeman has been murdered," quite forgetting that it was for the jury to decide whether p.c. Miles had been murdered. He certainly seems to have started off with the opinion that Bentley was guilty, when his job was to help the jury to decide on what was the truth. Just as some Court Martial officers seem to have started off with the assumption that the accused was guilty, ands the purpose of the Court Martial was only to decide on the punishment. Bentley had a mental age of 11. A real 11-year-old was considered to be below the age of criminal responsibility. I'm not sure whether Bentley was examined by a psychologist but if he was, it must have resulted in an opinion that he knew what he was doing and was able to understand the significance of the trial and take a full part in it. Reminds me accusations of medical evidence being ignored, or not even being sought, at Courts Martial. In 1993 Derek Bentley was granted a Royal Pardon in respect of the sentence carried out on him. This was just an admission that the execution was not a fair punishment, I believe. It didn't clear Bentley of Murder. The SAD campaigners are hoping for something similar and their campaign appears to stop there. However, Bentley was granted much, much more than a pardon when, in 1998, the appeal court ruled that his conviction was unsafe and quashed it. In others words, Bentley was wrongly convicted, (largely because he was not treated fairly at his trial) was not guilty of murder and was, therefore, innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Also if, as Ian appears to be suggesting, he wasn't gassed, he must have been fooling everyone for years with his 'soft' voice. Teapots, Christie enlisted in 1916 as a signalman, becoming quite good at detailed work. He saw action once, in 1918, when a mustard gas shell knocked him unconscious and temporarily blinded him. He also lost his voice and remained silent for over three years. Physicians determined this to be a hysterical reaction rather than a real physical malady. Quite simply, he was afraid. After that, he exaggerated his illness to avoid unpleasant situations, and on demobilisation received a disability allowance. For a good (though 'slightly' biased) version of the Bentley Case, look here... http://web1.pipemedia.net/~sar/bentley/db_story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 when a mustard gas shell knocked him unconscious Even this sounds fanciful. Did this information come from Christie? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 For anyone who is interested, a film was made about this case called "10 Rillington Place" which starred Richard Attenborough as Christie. You can buy it quite cheaply in HMV and other video stores. An excellent performance from Attenborough, and a very creepy film. I recommend it. Aside from the drama of the story, the production creates a vivid picture of hard, dull and - in some respects - squalid lives that people worked through in those days. S "10 Rillington Place " was filmed inside the actual house that the murders were committed. As soon as they finished filming the house was demolished. It is no wonder that the film was creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 NEVER REALLY GET INVOLVED IN SERIOUS STUFF LIKE THIS BUT WHEN I SAW THIS FILM 10 RILLINGTON PLACE AND HOW AS IT APPEARED A HALF WIT WAS CONFUSED WITH THE TRIAL AND STILL PLEADING HIS INOCENCE WAS HANGED IN THAT SCENE FROM THE FILM PUT ME OFF THE DEATH PENALTY---WEATHER HE WAS INNOCENT OR NOT NOW WE WILL NEVER KNOW, BUT BEFORE YOU GET THE WRONG IDEA, I AM NOT A DOGOODER I AGREE WITH TONY MARTIN IF CAUGHT IN THE ACT SHOOT ON SIGHT OR AWAY FOR EVER, BUT CHRISTY WAS A VERY CLEVER MAN WHATEVER THE TRUTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markinbelfast Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I've often wondered what happen to the infamous persons medals....do you have any in your collection?...Just read that Dennis Nilsen was a British Army cook..I take it he would have been awarded a gong.For proof of Nilsen military click here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 If my memory serves me correctly Nilsen was in the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 'At the age of fifteen, Nilsen enrolled into the catering corp of the army and was trained at Aldershot for the next three years. It was when the army posted Nilsen to Osnabrook in Germany that he began to drink heavily and discover his sexual preferences for men.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I stand corrected and my apologies to any Argyll's out there. I'm sure I've seen a photo of him wearing a glengarry though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I've often wondered what happen to the infamous persons medals....do you have any in your collection?...Just read that Dennis Nilsen was a British Army cook..I take it he would have been awarded a gong.For proof of Nilsen military click here He got the CSM for his service in NI. He however sold it for a fiver when he was hard up - see Murders fo the Black Museum by Gordon Honeycombe Part 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I stand corrected and my apologies to any Argyll's out there. I'm sure I've seen a photo of him wearing a glengarry though. Roger, He may well have been attached to the Argylls. I believe it was normal for Cooks to be attached to Regiments or Battalions. However, I'm sure some 'Cement Company' experts will advise better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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