What rifles did the royal naval division use in Antwerp october 1914?

[4thGordons]

Here is a pre war picture of a shore party (?) from HMS Prometheus wearing what appears to be the same equipment.

Here they are armed with Long lees - but not charger loading, several also have muzzle covers on which I don't see much in photos.

Chris

[michaeldr]

Here is a pre war picture of a shore party (?)

A very good photograph Chris.

Similar webbing and hats are to be seen in a photograph of HMS Terrible's midshipmen during the Second Boer War; see 'Seapower Ashore' edited by Capt. Peter Hore, Chatham, 2001, ISBN 1 86176 155 4

regards

Michael

[centurion]

Don't know if these help. Apologies if seen before.The second appears in a number of places sometimes captioned as Antwerp and sometimes as Ostend

[michaeldr]

The second appears in a number of places sometimes captioned as Antwerp and sometimes as Ostend

Judging by the RM uniforms, I believe that the picture is correctly captioned as Ostende in this case.

I think that I am correct in saying that by the time that the RM reached Antwerp they had received their khaki

[bierlijn]

This is my grandfather's photograph he titled "Arrival at Walmer". Is this the same weapon?

Hugh

[4thGordons]

In the lower of the pictures posted by Centurion they appear to be armed with SMLEs

In Hugh's most recent picture it is "Long" Lee Enfield - and does not appear to be charger loading (I do not think there is a charger bridge visible - so it is the same type of rifle as shown in the picture I posted of the Prometheus group)

Here is an example: unfortunately about 20mm has been removed from the end of the barrel (recrowned for target shooting) almost unnoticeable until you try and fit a bayonet! MIne is also missing the sling swivels.

Does anyone have an answer to the question I posed regarding the quote in post No20 by Michaeldr where Churchill apparently referred to "Short Mk IV rifles"? I know of no such creature in existence in 1914.

Chris

[edit to add pic]

Edited 17 January , 2010 by 4thGordons

[4thGordons]

To satisfy my own curiosity I did some digging and think I may have answered my own question:

It seems likely Churchill was referring to what was officially called the Short, Magazine Lee Enfield Mk IV Cond.

These are stamped COND IV (con'd = converted) Approved in 1907 these were modifications of MkII and II* Lee-Metfords and MkI and MkI* Lee-Enfields to the SMLE configuration (fitting of safety, charger bridge shorter barrel and SMLE front band and rear sight) These conversions were done at Enfield. Apart from the markings in a photo these would look just like SMLE MkIIIs

There were several conversions for specifically naval use that were made at RNOD Chatham, Portsmouth and Plymouth these were: the SMLE MkI**, SMLE Cond II** and Cond II*** (there was also a .22 trainer pattern that was approved for Naval use)

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

It seems likely Churchill was referring to what was officially called the Short, Magazine Lee Enfield Mk IV Cond.

These are stamped COND IV (con'd = converted) Approved in 1907 these were modifications of MkII and II* Lee-Metfords and MkI and MkI* Lee-Enfields to the SMLE configuration (fitting of safety, charger bridge shorter barrel and SMLE front band and rear sight) These conversions were done at Enfield. Apart from the markings in a photo these would look just like SMLE MkIIIs

If you ever visit Pendennis Castle, they have one of these as part of a WW1 kit display, and I can assure you it's generous to say it looks "just like" a MkIII - even from a distance it had me thinking it looked rather odd, until I realised it was a conversion job. The woodwork for a start had a rather different overall profile to a standard SMLE.

[4thGordons]

If you ever visit Pendennis Castle, they have one of these as part of a WW1 kit display, and I can assure you it's generous to say it looks "just like" a MkIII - even from a distance it had me thinking it looked rather odd, until I realised it was a conversion job. The woodwork for a start had a rather different overall profile to a standard SMLE.

I suspect that you may be paying a little closer attention than many! What I meant was it would be fitted with a SMLE rear sight, charger bridge, rear sight protectors and a front band/bayonet mount like a SMLE so in a photo of the quality that this thread began with I doubt most of us would be able to tell them apart. I believe the MkIV Cond. used cut down and reshaped original (long-lee) forends which might explain what you observe.

The profile of SMLE woodwork even on MkIII/MkIII*s exhibits some variablity in itself so it is even a bit difficult to talk of a "standard" for them. Early rifles are distinctly slimmer and more "delicate" in cross section - there are then of course the variations regarding the installation (or othewise) of the cut-off and the volley sights. The front handguard on early MkI rifles (reused on conversions often) also stands significantly more proud at the rear band than on MkIIIs (and the screw holding the barrel band is under the rear band rather than being slightly behind it). Later war MkIII* rifles often exhibit a "chunkier", slightly cruder profile in my experience...although I have not seen definitive documentation of this as an approved change. There also seems to be some variation between manufacturers.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the rifle you mention would you Andrew? The only reference I have is the pic. in Skennerton.

Cheers,

Chris

[michaeldr]

Chris,

Many thanks for getting to the bottom of this

Good to know that WSC was on top of the job after all

Thanks again

Michael

[Andrew Upton]

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the rifle you mention would you Andrew? The only reference I have is the pic. in Skennerton.

Unfortunately no, but that was more due to a late arrival on our part, and the museum staff wanting to close it down after we'd been inside only a few minutes

[trooper66]

Over 150,000 1900 and 1907 .256inch Arisaka rifles were in fact bought from Japan in WW1, and later most were sold to Russia

[bierlijn]

The book 'The Hermit of Peking: The Hidden Life of Sir Edmund Backhouse' by Hugh Trevor Roper has details of a 1914 plan to buy vast amounts of rifles left over from a Chinese civil war. A huge sum of money was given to Backhouse to arrange this, which then disappeared, despite Backhouse's frequent reports of progress in the project.

I can't recommend the book highly enough, and it's surely one of the greatest pieces of biographical research ever undertaken.

[TonyE]

Whilst the part of the story of Blackhouse's shenanigans pretending to buy Chinese rifles and machine guns told in Trevor-Roper's book is very interesting, reading the actual telegrams that passed between the Foreign Office and the Legation in Peking is even more fascinating. I researched this in some depth at the NA when I was writing my books on secondary weapons.

Blackhouse even reported that the arms were loaded on Chinese ships but that their captains were reluctant to sail to Hong Kong, resulting in a telegram from the Foreign Office saying “..spare no expense to induce Chinese officer or captains to deliver Hong Kong.”

Regards

TonyE

[Niko]

Hello folks,

Here's one of my favorite pictures of the Antwerp operation, it shows members of the RND's Naval Brigade in Belgian trenches near one of the redoubts between FortIII and Fort IV at Vieux Dieu (Mortsel), about 5kms from my front door. Mostly, the picture is cropped and you cannot see all the rifles, but here you can.....

So it shows clearly the weapons of most of the sailors: Lee Enfield 'Long' rifles, only in the foreground is the muzzle of a SMLE, it is probably of one of the RMLI-noncoms attached to the Naval Brigades. A pitty that it doesn't show the uniforms, as the RMLI (including the noncoms attached) wore already the khaki uniforms in Antwerp, and the sailors wore their regular blue uniforms.

The picture here of the RMLI is definitely Ostend in late August, as they are still wearing their blue uniforms and typical 'Broderick Hat'. The large building in the background of the RMLI is the Ostend Station.

Grtz,

Niko.

[SiegeGunner]

The German caption to that photo reads "British troops sent to reinforce the Antwerp garrison arrive in Ostend".

[Niko]

The German caption to that photo reads "British troops sent to reinforce the Antwerp garrison arrive in Ostend".

Yes, but the RMLI was ordered to retreat from Ostend after the arrival of the Belgian 4th Division from Namur. The Marines that arrived in Antwerp in October, landed in Dunkirk as Ostend was no longer safe to land troops, according to the admirality.

Grtz,

Niko.

[michaeldr]

The German caption to that photo reads "British troops sent to reinforce the Antwerp garrison arrive in Ostend".

and

The Marines that arrived in Antwerp in October, landed in Dunkirk

Niko is correct here; see Blumberg 'Britain's Sea Seldiers' – "General Paris received his orders early on the morning of 3rd October; the Brigade entrained in cattle trucks at 8-30am and traveled via Dunkirk and Bruges, machine guns were mounted in the trucks in case of attack. Arriving outside Antwerp the detrained at 11pm at Vieux Dieux, which is about six or seven miles east of the town and went into billets at Edyghem about 4-0am."

The RM 'Blue' uniform also indicates that this was not October 1914, but rather Ostend earlier in the autumn; see post No. 32 here

regards

Michael

[Niko]

And here's another of my favorites: RMLI during the retreat from Antwerp, it shows the typical Royal Navy gaiters which is the only means of identification from other British infantry of 1914, as they wear the standard khaki uniform and SMLE's:

Grtz,

Niko.

[bierlijn]

I've hunted around and found this cigarette card type photo, which was coloured in its earlier life but that has faded. More 'action' at the fortress line, and an interesting hat too.

[Niko]

The middle one also acquired a Belgian canteen, I think!

Grtz,

Niko.

[bierlijn]

Yep and the canvas bag, and grandpa Claude also has one of these, is referred to in Jerrold as purchased in a hurry shortly before the troopships sailed from England.

[Andrew Upton]

If you ever visit Pendennis Castle, they have one of these as part of a WW1 kit display, and I can assure you it's generous to say it looks "just like" a MkIII - even from a distance it had me thinking it looked rather odd, until I realised it was a conversion job. The woodwork for a start had a rather different overall profile to a standard SMLE.

I suspect that you may be paying a little closer attention than many! What I meant was it would be fitted with a SMLE rear sight, charger bridge, rear sight protectors and a front band/bayonet mount like a SMLE so in a photo of the quality that this thread began with I doubt most of us would be able to tell them apart. I believe the MkIV Cond. used cut down and reshaped original (long-lee) forends which might explain what you observe.

...

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the rifle you mention would you Andrew? The only reference I have is the pic. in Skennerton.

Bringing this back to the top...

My parents visited Cornwall for their Wedding Anniversary last month, so I asked if they visited Pendennis Castle to take a few pictures of the rifle. After a few false starts they eventually got the right one

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqIyilr

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqIzrGA

http://s1.postimage.org/4xBgi-12dd600f603d...8a37b5d335c.jpg

[Andrew Upton]

http://s2.postimage.org/k_dS-12dd600f603db...8a37b5d335c.jpg