Captured Lewis Guns

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here is a photo you may find interesting, Sturmtruppen of the 164 IR, just before being wiped out in Flanders in July/August 1917.

I added some more shots here... http://www.kaiserscross.com/246801/257501.html

[tocemma]

Hi Chris,

Fabulous image, thanks for posting. Do you have any info on the sleeve patch they seem to be wearing? Crossed hand grenades??

Regards

Tocemma

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

The group photo seems to show members of an Infantry Zug (164 Inf Regt) freshly trained as assault troops. I assume they are wearing unofficial crossed grenades.

They were in the line in Flanders June-July 1917 but were more or less exhausted and pulled out of the line by the 31st of July... by then a lot of these men would have been dead.

[michaeldr]

Earlier in this thread there is a photograph of Lewis Guns captured by the Turks near Shellal, in Palestine, and there followed on from that a discussion as to whether or not the Turks used captured Lewis Guns against the allies.

In my reading today I have just come across the following in the British OH regarding 14th November 1917

"Soon afterwards the Turks desisted their efforts and fell back beyond Rishon le Ziyon, leaving behind them five machine guns, two Lewis guns, and about one hundred and fifty dead. Their strength was estimated to have been 1,500, with a great number of machine guns - some of them with prismatic sights - and automatic rifles. In truth it would appear that the bulk of the much-depleted 3rd Division was engaged against the New Zealanders. The casualties of the latter numbered 175."

[bob lembke]

Just came across a couple of interesting related statistics. From the Reichsarchiv series Der Weltkrieg, Volume 9, page 383; at the end of 1915 the German Army was armed with 8000 MGs, as opposed to 2400 at the begining of the war; of the 8000 MGs 1900 were Beutewaffen, or "captured weapons". I had not known that there were so many. I had read of a German MG unit, it was using MG 08s, but also carried with them as reserve weapons three Vickers MGs and one Russian MG. But I read a lot of stuff and it is rarely mentioned that captured MGs were being used, aside from the captured or stolen Madsens and then Lewis guns by the three or so LMG battalions, while I see many mentions of the use of captured artillery. With 1900 guns most would have been captured belt-fed weapons.

Bob Lembke

[centurion]

The majority were Russian Maxims and a production line was established to convert them

[Tom W.]

The majority were Russian Maxims and a production line was established to convert them

Men of Sturmbataillon Nr. 14 training Austrians in Galicia:

[bob lembke]

The majority were Russian Maxims and a production line was established to convert them

Thanks for that. It makes sense. I have just finished reading about 1500 or 2000 pages of german official histories on the fighting in the east from 1914 thru to the end of 1915, and while the Germans never seemed to capture large hauls of MGs at any one engagement, in a given battle they usually captured quite a few more cannon than MGs. When they took one of the great Russian forts, they typically captured say 1300 cannon (including a great deal of obsolete old junk), 100 or 150 MGs, and sometimes 900,000 shells. (Sometimes the defenders did a good job of destroying the materiel, sometimes they did not.) So over a year and a half the total number of Russian Maxims captured must have been fairly high. Also, German artillery units used a fair number of Russian cannon, some French, and a bit of Belgian, but I cannot recall mentioning the use of any British guns.

Bob

[bob lembke]

Just came across some interesting data roughly in line with the Topic of this thread. This data is from Lt-col. (later major-general) Alfred Knox, who was in Russia for years as the military Attache, spoke Russian, had access everywhere (lunching with the Czar, etc), active in helping Russia with arms, etc. So this data should be authorative. Total Russian MGs as of January 14, 1917:

Russian Maxims 10,831

Colts 1,584

German Maxims mod to take Russian SAA 390

German Maxims firing German SAA 81

Austrian Schwartzlose 1,145

Madsen (Danish LMG) 355 *

"Shosha" (Skoda??) 100

Hotchkiss 450

Lewis 500

Total 15,436

* The Germans also adopted these for its three "Musketen" battalions, later equipped with Lewis Guns.

Russians also gave lots of small arms, 100,000 Austrian rifles, 25 million Austrian SAA, and many Austrian MGs, before this date.

Bob Lembke

[Rob Connolly]

bob, about the "Shosha" - IIRC American troops issued with the Chatelleraut nicknamed it the "Sho-sho". Dunno if this is relevant, and I'm relying on memory, but there you go.

[bob lembke]

bob, about the "Shosha" - IIRC American troops issued with the Chatelleraut nicknamed it the "Sho-sho". Dunno if this is relevant, and I'm relying on memory, but there you go.

Rob;

Are you talking about the LMG that I know as the Chauchat (If I have that spelled correctly)? A similar but better-made gun came out in the early post-war period, with a similar but longer name, could that be the "Chatelleraut"? Knox spoke French and several other languages and while his transliterations are occasionally a bit curious I don't think that he would have twisted either name into "Shosha", nor known nor taken much heed of what US troops would have called it a year in the future.

But I thank you for your input!

Bob

[KAC]

Again not really on the subject - There are also images of a Mk5 Tank during the defense of Berlin that seems to still be fitted with Lewis guns! This tank was captured during WW2 during the invasion of Russia...

Not sure if I've mis-remembered this but I think that "The World at War" (an episode that deals with the last-ditch defence of Berlin) shows a march of elderly Volksstrum members carrying a random assortment of weapons. One of them has a Lewis gun over his shoulder.

It seems likely that this is a 'convert' but it's also surprising that this would have survived whatever disarmament process took place after Versailles.

Maybe the carrier had had experience of the Lewis in the first lot. I hope he didn't have to use it the second time around!

[centurion]

Again not really on the subject - There are also images of a Mk5 Tank during the defense of Berlin that seems to still be fitted with Lewis guns! This tank was captured during WW2 during the invasion of Russia...

Unless you've got something new and spectacular there are no photos of Mk Vs in the defence of Berlin. There are some of wrecked Mk Vs out side a museum after the battle (in which they played no part)

Thanks for that. It makes sense. I have just finished reading about 1500 or 2000 pages of german official histories on the fighting in the east from 1914 thru to the end of 1915, and while the Germans never seemed to capture large hauls of MGs at any one engagement, in a given battle they usually captured quite a few more cannon than MGs. When they took one of the great Russian forts, they typically captured say 1300 cannon (including a great deal of obsolete old junk), 100 or 150 MGs, and sometimes 900,000 shells. (Sometimes the defenders did a good job of destroying the materiel, sometimes they did not.) So over a year and a half the total number of Russian Maxims captured must have been fairly high. Also, German artillery units used a fair number of Russian cannon, some French, and a bit of Belgian, but I cannot recall mentioning the use of any British guns.

Bob

I think the major haul came right at the beginning Tannenberg

[bob lembke]

I think the major haul came right at the beginning Tannenberg

According to Der Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918, Volume 2, which has over 100 pages on Tannenberg, Samsonov's 2nd (Narew) Army had 178,000 infantry, 18,000 cavalry, 384 MGs, and 636 guns. (page 238) Of this, the Germans took about 92,000 POWs, including 13 generals, and about 350 guns. Unfortuntely, no figure is given for the number of MGs captured. (page 230) From these figures one might "guessamate" that about 200 MGs might have been taken, possibly more if a lot of infantry managed to escape capture but in the process threw away a lot of their heavier gear, including their MGs. I have read many accounts of engagements on the Eastern Front lately (about 3000 pages worth in the last 2 months) and the general impression was that in almost any given engagement the Germans did not capture many MGs, but the total did grow over time.

About two weeks after Tannenberg the Germans also defeated General Rennenkampf's 1st Russian Army a bit to the east of Tannenberg at the Masurian Lakes, and for the two related engagements Der Weltkrieg presented two estimates of 135,000 and 145,000 Russians taken prisoner, with over 500 cannon. (page 317) The Germans held the field after both engagements, and they were on German territory, so the Germans probably eventually recovered almost all discarded MGs. So one might estimate that in these two engagements the Germans probably eventually collected about 400 MGs. I believe that, at this time, on all fronts, the German Army possessed about 2400 MGs of their own, so this was indeed a good haul, and, coupled with how clear it quickly became apparent that the MG was going to be a very important weapon in this war, the idea of converting many of these MGs to German service probably was quickly grasped. All thru the War the Germans were very industriously collecting weapons and useful materials in an organized fashion. My grand-father, in response to a telegram from the Ministry of War, twice set out with an escort to scour Belgium for useful materials; among his findings were two rail cars of eau de Cologne, two rail cars of surgical instruments left by the hastily retreating British forces, a great quantity of sardines in oil, but in particular, 1100 rail cars of nitrates he found hidden underground by the Belgians literally with the use of his trained nose, having been an explosives technician and then an explosives officer in the Prussian heavy artillery for 28 years, and easily able to distinguish the specific aroma of decomposing nitrates. This was enough to keep the German Army in explosives for four months of the war.

Bob Lembke

[centurion]

One should remember that it was not until 25th August 1916 that the Kriegsministerium gave permission for the use of captured machine guns. Despite the Hindenburg-Programm for the acceleration of war material production German industry was already showing signs of not being able to match demand. By this time there must have been quite an accumulation of captured guns - certainly enough for Spandau to introduce a conversion line for Russian Maxims and conversion kits to be produced for Lewis and Vickers guns (which required fewer replacement parts). One wonders if the battering the German army took on the Somme influenced this.

[bmg17a1]

As far as converting a .303 Lewis to fire the 7.92, it requires significant alteration to the feed slot in the top of the receiver. The feedslot in the top of the receiver, incorporating the feedlips, on the Lewis is caliber specific since the round must be held in the correct position by the feedlips for the bolt to drive it into the chamber. If the slot is incorrectly shaped, either the cartridge will not drop down sufficiently to be picked up by the bolt, or it falls through and either drops into the receiver or hangs down vertically, which jams the action. The 7.92 is quite a bit longer and quite a bit narrower than the .303, but with adequate gunsmithing the feedslot/feedlips can be modified to fit the 7.92, but at some effort and expense. The second requirement is a 7.92 barrel, which would have been no problem to produce in quantity. Sights could be recalibrated.

The drums present the biggest obstacle to the convenient conversion of a Lewis to fire the 7.92 round. No .303 drum can be modified to fit the 7.92 without extensive modification, to the point where new manufacture is the most direct path. I have encountered only one 7.92 Lewis drum in many years of collecting MGs and related items. It is in my collection, is Mauser marked, looks identical to early style .303 drums and fits onto a Lewis. One would expect to find many 7.92 drums if there was an effort by the Gremans to convert them to 7.92, but there just are no 7.92 drums anywhere, and certainly none in the US that I've ever found. From what I can discover about the 7.92 Lewis drum that I have, there is speculation that it was never intended for the Lewis but was for the first prototypes of the MG13 which were equipped with Lewis style drums. I have no positive proof of this, but the drum exists, no proof of any related MG for which it was designed.

The Germans used many captured MGs of all types and mostly in their original calibers if ammo was plentiful, so it must be that the Lewis guns were retained in .303 and ammo captured and provided where these LMGs were being fielded.

Bob Naess

[bmg17a1]

Having mentioned the 7.92 Lewis type drum in the post above, I thought it would be interesting to readers to see some pics of it. The very small engraved printing on the hub reads: MAUSERWAFFENFABRIK, G.mb.H., COELN-EHRENFELD. No other stamped or engraved info anywhere on the drum. On one half of the center of the outside hub retaining piece, there is a painted "S" for the spitzer 7.92. The top exterior surface stamping is unlike any of the Brit Lewis drums as well. I would certainly appreciate any observations about this drum from readers. I have never seen any reference to such a drum in any literature nor heard about one from any collectors in the US or overseas, or encountered another in over forty years of collecting MGs and accessories.

Bob Naess

Black River Militaria CII

USA