Bayonet marking question.

[coppertales]

Happy New Year.....I purchased a 1907 bayonet over the weekend. It has " 3 or 9 MAN" stamped on the pommel near the release button. The date of mfg is 1918. I can't make out the month. Is this a unit stamp? I have another with a lined out stamp but I don't recall what it is. I will list it later....thanks...chris3

[4thGordons]

Happy New Year.....I purchased a 1907 bayonet over the weekend. It has " 3 or 9 MAN" stamped on the pommel near the release button. The date of mfg is 1918. I can't make out the month. Is this a unit stamp? I have another with a lined out stamp but I don't recall what it is. I will list it later....thanks...chris3

Probably - this (the pommel) is the usual location. MAN would I assume be the Manchester Regiment

Chris

[TonyE]

Happy New Year to you all.

"MAN" is definitely the Manchester Regiment. A propos nothing in particular, here is a Type 38 Arisaka rifle with an 8th Manchester unit stamp.

Regards

TonyE

[findabetterole]

Here you are TonyE...

Seph

[coppertales]

Thanks guys. It is nice to have a bayonet actually traced to a unit. The other bayonet has a number and LL or the other way around. It is an Australian marked bayonet but could have been recycled from the battlefield. I will check for sure when I get home.....chris3

[TonyE]

LL is the Liverpool College Officer Training Corps.

Regards

TonyE

[coppertales]

I was in error, actually my memory was at fault. The actual mark is 11 RF, mfg 9-15.....chris3

[TonyE]

11th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers.

Regards

TonyE

[Pete_C]

LL is the Liverpool College Officer Training Corps.

Regards

TonyE

Tony, sadly you’re correct – just checked Skennerton’s ‘The Broad Arrow’, and there it is ‘L.L – Liverpool College’. I say ‘sadly’ because I purchased this relic brass marker disc in the 1980’s from the Tea Rooms at Delville Wood Museum – the Scottish lady who ran the shop had several biscuit tins full of buckles and bits, at 50p each I recall – and I’d always imagined the “L.L” to be The King's (Liverpool Regiment) and therefore very close to my heart, but as the good book says, that would be ‘L.l.' Even better I recall a fellow collector many years ago acquired a 1907 bayonet with the same 'LL' markings on the pommel - we'd speculated at the time that it was 'Liverpool Pals' and maybe the '4' on the marker disc represented '4th City, 20th service Battalion, The King's (Liverpool Regiment)' but again, on reflection, sadly, probably not.

I suppose anything can happen in wartime but is it likely that a rifle issued to the OTC would find its way to the Somme front line. The Feb 1915 issue date I can work out but can you explain the other numbers please – '1749’ – was that the rifle’s rack number or was it the owner’s number – and also the ‘4’ – I’d always thought 4th Battalion, but again probably not for Liverpool OTC - any ideas?

Cheers

Manxy

[TonyE]

1749 will be the rack number of the rifle. Although that disc format would normally indicate the 4th Battalion, I suppose it could be the 4th Company in the OTC.

It is quite possible that rifles were taken back from OTC units in 1915 as they were needed for front line units. They may have been replaced by older CLLEs or even Arisakas.

In France the practice of having unit identities on butt discs was stopped in late 1915 as captured rifles gave intelligence to the enemy about the units facing them. Leaving a disc to a home based OTC unit would do no harm.

All this is conjecture though. Whilst there was supposed to be a standard format for marking rifles, in practice all sorts of variations appear and many of them seem to have been at the whim of the armourer.

Regards

TonyE