Serbert Bebb - KSLI or Shropshire Yeomanry - Help please

[greatbeanbags]

John Oliver, a Shropshire dairy farmer & friend is trying to find information about his WW1 serving grandfather. John is unsure about his grandfathers' regiment but his unusual name might stand out & make tracking down easy?

Can anyone find his Medal card, War Service Record etc. & post here please? John is trying to find images of his grandfather & hopefully medals to show you all.

Thanks.

Clive

[sotonmate]

Clive

No service record pops up in Ancestry UK. His Medal Index Card shows:

Sebert D BEBB Private 1614 Shropshire Yeomanry and Private 230108 Shropshire Light Infantry. He entered the war after 31.12.1915 and earned the British War and Victory Medals as well as the Territorial Force War Medal. You can see which Battalion he served in at the time of his entitlement to the Medals (that is,first landing in a war theatre) from the original Medal Rolls under WO329/1485 page 5223 at the National Archives.

From the SLI number,which was a 1917 re-numbering of the Territorial Force,we can see that he was 10th Battalion,which was with 74 Division in Egypt/Palestine/Syria from Jan 1917 to Apr 1918. Their War Diary is at the Archives under WO95/4679.

Sotonmate

Edit: The other bit I should have added is that in his time with the Yeomanry they were part of 4 Dismount Brigade on the Suez Canal Defences from Mar to Dec 1916. I guess then the unit changed to 10 SLI and it's story taken on by the above Diary. War Diary for 4 Dismount Bde is under WO95/4427. A read of both of these Diaries will reveal his life at war.

[SteveE]

MIC transcribed.....

[greatbeanbags]

Clive

No service record pops up in Ancestry UK. His Medal Index Card shows:

Sebert D BEBB Private 1614 Shropshire Yeomanry and Private 230108 Shropshire Light Infantry. He entered the war after 31.12.1915 and earned the British War and Victory Medals as well as the Territorial Force War Medal. You can see which Battalion he served in at the time of his entitlement to the Medals (that is,first landing in a war theatre) from the original Medal Rolls under WO329/1485 page 5223 at the National Archives.

From the SLI number,which was a 1917 re-numbering of the Territorial Force,we can see that he was 10th Battalion,which was with 74 Division in Egypt/Palestine/Syria from Jan 1917 to Apr 1918. Their War Diary is at the Archives under WO95/4679.

Sotonmate

Edit: The other bit I should have added is that in his time with the Yeomanry they were part of 4 Dismount Brigade on the Suez Canal Defences from Mar to Dec 1916. I guess then the unit changed to 10 SLI and it's story taken on by the above Diary. War Diary for 4 Dismount Bde is under WO95/4427. A read of both of these Diaries will reveal his life at war.

Fantastic info & so quick! John will be delighted!! Thank you Sotonmate

Clive

MIC transcribed.....

Brilliant SteveE!

Thanks.

Clive

[sotonmate]

Clive

Both Diaries are downloadable from the National Archives Digital Express service,which operates during normal working hours only. They will cost 3.50 for each one.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue

Sotonmate

[greatbeanbags]

Clive

Both Diaries are downloadable from the National Archives Digital Express service,which operates during normal working hours only. They will cost 3.50 for each one.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue

Sotonmate

Info forwarded to John - thanks again. Hope John now joins the forum & tells us more about his grandfather - also his great uncle, who was KIA, according to info just found & posted by Squirrel, a forum member!

Clive

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Clive

I can add a little more to whot Sotonmate & Steve have already said. Absent Voters 1918 records him at Upper Shadymoor Farm, Stapleton. He would have enlisted around early to mid 1913. He Trans. to K.S.L.I. on 16-12-16 along with the rest of the 1/1st Shropshire Yeomanry & the 1/1st Cheshire Yeomanry, when these to units were merge together and turned into infantry and formed the 10th Battalion K.S.L.I.

Was your friends great uncle 230151 John Bebb formerly 1711 Shropshire Yeo. born Berwick, Shrops. resided Myddle.

Annette

[greatbeanbags]

Hi Clive

I can add a little more to whot Sotonmate & Steve have already said. Absent Voters 1918 records him at Upper Shadymoor Farm, Stapleton. He would have enlisted around early to mid 1913. He Trans. to K.S.L.I. on 16-12-16 along with the rest of the 1/1st Shropshire Yeomanry & the 1/1st Cheshire Yeomanry, when these to units were merge together and turned into infantry and formed the 10th Battalion K.S.L.I.

Was your friends great uncle 230151 John Bebb formerly 1711 Shropshire Yeo. born Berwick, Shrops. resided Myddle.

Annette

Hi Annette

Thanks - as a matter of interest Upper Shadymoor Farm is now owned & farmed by another friend, Kevan Fox. It is adjacent to New Hall Farm where John Oliver currently farms so it is correct that Sebert Tebb would be recorded at USF in the 1918 Absent Voters list. One of my interests is working Max my English springer spaniel & this is done over the land of both these farms. Beautiful countryside, conservation paramount & the few shot birds all going for the 'pot'!

I will forward this to John & leave him to comment on wether John Bebb is related to Serbert his grandfather.

Happy Xmas & New Year

Clive

[NeilEvans]

Clive,

Bebb is quite an unuaual surname. I have 5 in my database that fell, although not the man you interested in, they maybe of use.

David Evan Bebb Fell 25/10/1914, of Grinshill. Formally of Yockleton, not to far from Stapleton

John Bebb Fell 30/11/1917, of Myddle

John Robert Bebb Fell 01/04/1918, of Oswestry

Henry Bebb Fell 28/03/1943, of Weston Rhyn

I also have this plaque from Myddle church for John Bebb and this photo from the Shrewsbury and Wellington Journal 1914 for a Harry Bebb from Much Wenlock.

[greatbeanbags]

Thanks Annette - great images!

Have to leave it to John to comment on all this.

Clive

[NeilEvans]

Tis i Neil You're not the first to get us mixed up.

Neil

[greatbeanbags]

Tis i Neil You're not the first to get us mixed up.

Neil

Hi Neil - sorry for the mix up!

Have just taken a quick look at your website Shropshire Virtual War Memorial to the Shropshire fallen. Nicely done.

I recently posted another topic for my friend John - his great uncle who members have discovered was KIA - Henry (Harry) John Oliver - Machine Gun Corps - not sure if you have seen the post but is he one of the front page images on your site or do you know of him or want to include etc.? I am sure this would be appreciated by John Oliver if you do this.

My grandfather fought with the Manchester Regiment (initially a Royal Fusilier) & this is what I have done with his memorabilia. My relations who didn't make it through the Great War were Suffolk lads & I am a Devonian by birth but a Shropshire lad now!

Happy Xmas & New Year to you

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Clive

You're not the first to get us mixed up.

The best way to tell us apart is I have hairy legs, were as Neil shaves his

Nice dog by the way, I have a Borderlakeland (not sure of spelling) cross pattadale.

Merry Xmas

Annette

[NeilEvans]

Clive,

Thank you for your kind words.

Annette,

I stopped a while ago

Neil

[greatbeanbags]

John Oliver has given me permission to publish this picture taken at the end of Jan 2010.

He is pictured with one of his sons, Phil. Serbert would be proud of his grandson & great grandson.

[Serbert Bebb]

Hector John Bebb of Polemere farm Yockelton Shropshire was Serbert Bebb's brother. Serbert had 4 brothers and 6 sisters. I understand one brother Hector was sent to New Zealand during the war, the family didn't want to loose another son to the war . Serberts brothers and sisters as follows .

Mabel married  David James  of Cefndu - no children Buried Monford Bridge .

Percy married  Annie Evans , Henfaes Welshpool , had 5 sons and  4 daughters , they to were sucsesful farmers in the Birmingham  and Tamworth areas  except three younger daughters  who toook up a easir life in Oswestry.

Dorris married  Ewart  Williams, farmed  at Moydog. Then at Rednall the family still farm at Hengwm.

Herbert married  Patty (martha) Pryce of south Shropshire. Had two sons. Noel was farming and trevor in services.

Ethal married Harry Jones of  Miefod. Had  2 sons and 2 daughters lived in wolverhampton. teaching and in business. Harry had a prominent position and Sun beam cars.

Olga married  Evan Pryce of South shropshire. Had no family. Farmed at Bantree farm, Arley, untill retiring at  Worcester.

Search Tudor Bebb Polemere farm Yockelton ,  (We Relate . org ) site and you will see more about  Serbert's brother Hector Bebb. The Bebb's had great connections with Powys Castle especially during the war years in Welshpool and Nesscliffe Nr Shrewsbury where there was a prison of war camp where they were given a 100 year lease on Hilley farm Nesscliffe. Italian and German soldiers where held. The prisoners would go to Hilley farm to buy eggs. Did they also work on the land at Hilley farm Nr Shropshire ?? Hecto Bebb's grandson still farms Powys Castle Hilley farm today. He took over the farm from his mother Joy and John .  Tudor Bebb's brother was drowned in shallow water. It was forbidden to talk about the drowned Derrick Bebb. The only time that Derrick was mentioned was when  Tudor Bebb got ill before Tudor's passing.                                                                                                               I can't speak for all the Bebb's  But Tudor Bebb would engage children in fights.

Hector Bebb was a well respected farmer as were the other Bebb's . Note Bebb of Lanfair Caereinon married his own niece to keep the lands and farms in the Bebb name . 

Clements Holloway  is Lillians  brother your great grandfather. Lillian married  Richard Bebb after moving from Wales  they farmed  at Middle Shadymoore Dorington Shropshire  Was this another farm owned by Powys Castle in Welshpool ? Just like Hilley farm in Nesscliffe  shropshire  ? 

After Shady moore    Lillian and Richard Bebb  bought the farm at  Upper Farm Hampton Loade  Chelmarsh Shropshire . Richard and Lillian retired to  Bayston Hill and there son Richard took  ? took over the farm. When Richard died  Lillian moved in with her daughter Iris at Lyth wood Rd  cross keys Nr Shrewsbury.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Clement and  Margaret Holloway .Dates back to 1711.  Both farming stock  in  the Castle Caereinon area of Montgomeryshire. Buried  at Trelystan  .

Serbert Bebb was not spoken about after dying in the great war . It was a great loss . Hence they sent there son Hector to New Zealand .  They didn't want to loose another son . and guess they could afford to send there son to another country    . They would never talk to anyone about sending Hector Bebb over seas as they knew how embarrassing it was to the family . It wasn't the first time that the Bebb's had escaped conflict. They fled the civil war in France in 1870                            

 

[Serbert Bebb]

24 minutes ago, Serbert Bebb said:

Hector John Bebb of Polemere farm Yockelton Shropshire was Serbert Bebb's brother. Serbert had 4 brothers and 6 sisters. I understand one brother Hector was sent to New Zealand during the war, the family didn't want to loose another son to the war . Serberts brothers and sisters as follows .

Mabel married  David James  of Cefndu - no children Buried Monford Bridge .

Percy married  Annie Evans , Henfaes Welshpool , had 5 sons and  4 daughters , they to were sucsesful farmers in the Birmingham  and Tamworth areas  except three younger daughters  who toook up a easir life in Oswestry.

Dorris married  Ewart  Williams, farmed  at Moydog. Then at Rednall the family still farm at Hengwm.

Herbert married  Patty (martha) Pryce of south Shropshire. Had two sons. Noel was farming and trevor in services.

Ethal married Harry Jones of  Miefod. Had  2 sons and 2 daughters lived in wolverhampton. teaching and in business. Harry had a prominent position and Sun beam cars.

Olga married  Evan Pryce of South shropshire. Had no family. Farmed at Bantree farm, Arley, untill retiring at  Worcester.

Search Tudor Bebb Polemere farm Yockelton ,  (We Relate . org ) site and you will see more about  Serbert's brother Hector Bebb. The Bebb's had great connections with Powys Castle especially during the war years in Welshpool and Nesscliffe Nr Shrewsbury where there was a prison of war camp where they were given a 100 year lease on Hilley farm Nesscliffe. Italian and German soldiers where held. The prisoners would go to Hilley farm to buy eggs. Did they also work on the land at Hilley farm Nr Shropshire ?? Hecto Bebb's grandson still farms Powys Castle Hilley farm today. He took over the farm from his mother Joy and John .  Tudor Bebb's brother was drowned in shallow water. It was forbidden to talk about the drowned Derrick Bebb. The only time that Derrick was mentioned was when  Tudor Bebb got ill before Tudor's passing.                                                                                                               I can't speak for all the Bebb's  But Tudor Bebb would engage children in fights.

Hector Bebb was a well respected farmer as were the other Bebb's . Note Bebb of Lanfair Caereinon married his own niece to keep the lands and farms in the Bebb name . 

Clements Holloway  is Lillians  brother your great grandfather. Lillian married  Richard Bebb after moving from Wales  they farmed  at Middle Shadymoore Dorington Shropshire  Was this another farm owned by Powys Castle in Welshpool ? Just like Hilley farm in Nesscliffe  shropshire  ? 

After Shady moore    Lillian and Richard Bebb  bought the farm at  Upper Farm Hampton Loade  Chelmarsh Shropshire . Richard and Lillian retired to  Bayston Hill and there son Richard took  ? took over the farm. When Richard died  Lillian moved in with her daughter Iris at Lyth wood Rd  cross keys Nr Shrewsbury.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Clement and  Margaret Holloway .Dates back to 1711.  Both farming stock  in  the Castle Caereinon area of Montgomeryshire. Buried  at Trelystan  .

Serbert Bebb was not spoken about after dying in the great war . It was a great loss . Hence they sent there son Hector to New Zealand .  They didn't want to loose another son . and guess they could afford to send there son to another country    . They would never talk to anyone about sending Hector Bebb over seas as they knew how embarrassing it was to the family . It wasn't the first time that the Bebb's had escaped conflict. They fled the civil war in France in 1870                            

 

Serberts siblings were. Mable married  David James. Percy married  Annie Evans.  Dorris married Ewart Williams. Herbert married Patty Price  there son Trevor was in  service. Ethel married Harry Jones . OLga married Evan Pryce

 

Tudor Bebb Polemere farm Yockelton 

[Serbert Bebb]

Heather Bebb of Polemere Farm Yockelton Nr Shrewsbury . . Tudor Bebb's sister married in to the Royle family of Hadnall Shropshire. Haston Farm Hadnall Shropshire . Royle was in the great war . Was he in the same regiment as Royle from Hadnall. The Royle family from Hadnall thought that Royle had died in the war, given they didn't hear from him. One day the dog started barking and in through the gate Royle walked. Bebb and Royle's marriage. Failed due to Bebb . Does anyone have  details about Serbert Bebb being in the same regiment  as Royle.

[Serbert Bebb]

3 hours ago, Serbert Bebb said:

Heather Bebb of Polemere Farm Yockelton Nr Shrewsbury . . Tudor Bebb's sister married in to the Royle family of Hadnall Shropshire. Haston Farm Hadnall Shropshire . Royle was in the great war . Was he in the same regiment as Serbert Bebb from Hadnall. The Royle family from Hadnall thought that Royle had died in the war, given they didn't hear from him. One day the dog started barking and in through the gate Royle walked. Bebb and Royle's marriage. Failed due to Bebb . Does anyone have  details about Serbert Bebb being in the same regiment  as  Percy Royle.

 

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Serbert Bebb said:

Does anyone have  details about Serbert Bebb being in the same regiment  as  Percy Royle.

Serbert, Welcome to GWF.

I have no association with either BEBB or ROYLE families so have rather struggled to follow your earlier posts but this seems a more simple question to try and give you a start with [not an answer but a potential lead for you and/or others to potentially better follow up on since I have few research resources]

With a similar MIC to Sebert D BEBB there was a Percy ROYLE - both having Shropshire Yeomanry and King's Shropshire Light Infantry recorded

Images thanks to WFA/Fold3

ROYLE = SY, 1840, and KSLI, 225236 & 230223 - he clearly moved on to the the Royal Engineers, 451861

As for the/any relationship such as you describe = ???

Now for the further research to begin!

M

Edited 27 March by Matlock1418
royles' r nos.

[Matlock1418]

'Serbert BEBB' [of thread title] appears to have birth registered as:

BEBB,     SEBERT  DAVID	HOLLOWAY
GRO Reference: 1895  J Quarter in FORDEN  Volume 11B  Page 182

M

Edited 27 March by Matlock1418

[Serbert Bebb]

On 27/03/2024 at 20:06, Matlock1418 said:

'Serbert BEBB' [of thread title] appears to have birth registered as:

BEBB,     SEBERT  DAVID	HOLLOWAY
GRO Reference: 1895  J Quarter in FORDEN  Volume 11B  Page 182

M

 

[Matlock1418]

28 minutes ago, Serbert Bebb said:

  On 27/03/2024 at 10:06, Matlock1418 said:

'Serbert BEBB' [of thread title] appears to have birth registered as:

BEBB,     SEBERT  DAVID	HOLLOWAY
GRO Reference: 1895  J Quarter in FORDEN  Volume 11B  Page 182

And 'Sebert' is how the Army referred to him on his MIC [would be worth looking out his Medal Roll(s) too] - So wider searches may also perhaps be beneficial ???

Wishing you/everyone good luck.

M

Edited 28 March by Matlock1418

[kenf48]

On 27/03/2024 at 09:29, Matlock1418 said:

 so have rather struggled to follow your earlier posts

You are not alone 

On 27/03/2024 at 01:56, Serbert Bebb said:

Royle was in the great war . Was he in the same regiment as Royle from Hadnall. The Royle family from Hadnall thought that Royle had died in the war, given they didn't hear from him. One day the dog started barking and in through the gate Royle walked. Bebb and Royle's marriage. Failed due to Bebb . Does anyone have  details about Serbert Bebb being in the same regiment  as Royle.

First off suggest you have a look at the Long Long Trail (LLT) website on how to research soldiers of the Great War. Whilst genealogical information is useful this is not a genealogical site but is dedicated to research into all aspects of the Great War including individual soldiers.

To pursue the research above first take a look at this page of the LLT 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/shropshire-yeomanry/

You will see the first line Shropshire Yeomanry, which like all Yeomanry were organised within the Territorial Force (TF) and County Association in 1914, first went overseas to a theatre of war, Egypt, on the 4th March 1916.  Therefore no serving soldier in the Shropshire Yeomanry received the 14-15 Star Medal but the four digit number indicates both Pte Bebb and Pte Royle were in the cohort who went out to Egypt..

On the 2 March 1917 the Yeomanry was disbanded and famously formed into the 74th (Yeomanry) Division. With characteristic bitterness the Divisional Badge was the 'Broken Spur'. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/74th-yeomanry-division/

The men from the Shropshire Yeomanry were allocated six digit TF numbers and posted into the 10th Battalion Kings Shropshire L.I.

As far as Pte Royle is concerned, he and a number of other men were transferred on the 3rd September 1917 from the KSLI to the Royal Engineers signals branch in theatre.

As for their enlistment Pte.Bebb was awarded the TF War Medal and in order to qualify for that medal  he must have been serving with the Yeomanry on 4 August 1914; or have completed four years service with the Force before 4 August 1914 and rejoined on or before 30 September 1914.

I'm struggling a bit with the numbers but the closest I can get within the qualification period is March 1913. However he may have rejoined as it seems many who had completed their four year term of engagement from 1908 did so.

 Pte Royle on the other hand I believe enlisted in the Shropshire Yeomanry on the outbreak of war in August or September 1914. 

Apologies for any repetition of the original fourteen year old thread. I note @6th Shropshires has not visted the GWF for a number of years but she apparently has/had access to the AVL which may confirm it is the same Percy Royle.

The 1921 Census records a Percy Royle b.1894, a farmer at the Buildings Farm, Ellesmere Rural, Shropshire married to a Julia May Royle with one young son born 1921. In 1939 Percy Royle was a farmer at Haston Farm Hadnall and still married to Julia, by now they also had two daughters. It looks likely he was the Percy Royle on the medal index card.