topsey1234 Posted 12 December , 2009 Share Posted 12 December , 2009 This story appeared today in the Lincolnshire Echo about four Gainsborough soldiers, now commemorated through the research of a local school teacher. http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/news/W...il/article.html Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 12 December , 2009 Share Posted 12 December , 2009 Thanks Richard, I suspect i found a Non-Com in Metheringham, Lincs last week. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 12 December , 2009 Share Posted 12 December , 2009 What seems unusual about the Lincolnshire story - assuming the facts are as reported - is that the MoD has approved commemorations in circumstances where the local researcher says that they did not "originally" qualify because of the circumstances of deaths. In particular, one committed suicide after discharge. At least three of the five (including the man who I presume committed suicide) have surviving service papers. These indicate that one man (Goulding) was discharged following a problem with his hip. The other (Booth) appears to have had a standard Class Z discharge back to civilian life. I can't easily see the normal requirement of a link between cause of discharge and cause of death. Are we seeing a change to a more lax, and less meaningful, view by the MoD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 13 December , 2009 Share Posted 13 December , 2009 I can't easily see the normal requirement of a link between cause of discharge and cause of death. Are we seeing a change to a more lax, and less meaningful, view by the MoD? John,. from some recent inclusions it appears that the MOD are apparently adding men who never existed/are duplicates of men already commemorated. Lax? You tell me. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topsey1234 Posted 13 December , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2009 Thanks Richard, I suspect i found a Non-Com in Metheringham, Lincs last week. Neil Interesting- not too far from me- are you able to tell more? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 I can't easily see the normal requirement of a link between cause of discharge and cause of death. Are we seeing a change to a more lax, and less meaningful, view by the MoD? John my thoughts a. We dont know what level of evidence was put up by the submitter b. If the cases were rejected was he the sort who might kick up a stink with the press gving the MOD bad publicity Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 John my thoughts a. We dont know what level of evidence was put up by the submitter b. If the cases were rejected was he the sort who might kick up a stink with the press gving the MOD bad publicity Chris Hi Chris, I have spoken to 'the submitter' on several occasions over the past few years and I would think that his level of evidence would be well researched. I suspect that the new commemorations may have been relatives of his pupils or former pupils. He does not only 'teach' about the Great War but has a genuine interest, particularly in preserving the memory of those from Gainsborough who served. I'm sure that his interest gives 'added value' to the annual battlefield trips that he leads on behalf of his school. I can assure you that this honorable man does a good job. I only wish that he had been around when I was at school. I also refer you to post number 4 on this thread. Regards, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Hi Richard. I'm looking into the life of Fred Topham, died 1918. A resident told me he died due to the war. I visit Metheringham every few months, due there again on Jan 11th. There's also a chap in Ruskington that's stumped me. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 15 December , 2009 Share Posted 15 December , 2009 Steve thanks very much for your comments; I also wish I had a teacher like that All The Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 December , 2009 Share Posted 15 December , 2009 I can assure you that this honorable man does a good job. No criticism of the man should be inferred. However, by his own reported comments and a read through three sets of service papers, it seems that he has been able to persuade the MoD to commemorate men in circumstances that don't fit the usual criteria that the MoD sets for itself. As you know him, Steve, perhaps you could get some information from him about how he was able to achieve this success. I suspect many of us who have had apparently stronger cases rejected in the past would benefit from this knowledge in trying to draw up a second submission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 15 December , 2009 Share Posted 15 December , 2009 As you know him, Steve, perhaps you could get some information from him about how he was able to achieve this success. I suspect many of us who have had apparently stronger cases rejected in the past would benefit from this knowledge in trying to draw up a second submission. That's a good point John, I will contact him and ask for more detail. I'll be unable to do this until Thursday, but will do. Cheers, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 Hi John, I have spoken to the submitter who provided me with the details of the new commemorations. I would be surprised if the evidence could have been any stronger. All the usual criteria has been met and the decision left in the hands of the CWGC, with deference. He does say that the suicide case is different, but the inquest clearly mentioned the subject's war service and disability. As we all know, the press (especially local...no offence to any local Journo's out there!) often omit details. In this case they have also spelled one of the men's names incorrectly i.e. Golding. Perhaps the time is right to re-submit your own non-comm's? Regards, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 20 December , 2009 Share Posted 20 December , 2009 Thanks, Steve. I'm reassured that the MoD hasnt changed its practice then - apart from the suicide which might mean folk could quote this as precedent for commemoration of men who subsequently kill themselves after discharge. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 21 December , 2009 Share Posted 21 December , 2009 Hi John, I'm really not sure whether the MoD has changed its practice or not. All I do know is that these particular cases were researched thoroughly, as I imagine your own were. Perhaps a re-submission would have the 'proper and just' result now? I'm not quite sure what you mean regarding the suicide? The CWGC and the MoD considered the evidence from the inquest and decided it was as a consequence of his war service. Regards, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 21 December , 2009 Share Posted 21 December , 2009 Steve I'm aware that, in the past, the MoD has rejected suicides as there's been no evidence of a link between war service and the decision of a man to take his own life. I would have thought that the only possible linkage might be a suicide note along the lines of "it was the war that's making me do this". The case of mine I had in mind was of an officer medically discharged who died some months later. There is nothing in his file to indicate what the cause was. The battalion history only refers to failing health. The cause of death was heart trouble (and an epileptic seizure). At the time, his GP wrote to the War Office making the case that death was due to service but, presumably, this was not accepted. The advice from Terry Denham was that there was insufficient linkage as cause of discharge was unknown and that, in any event, a heart condition may well not be linked to service. It made made sense to me at the time. My surprise at reading the newspaper report and the available service files was about the men who died from TB as there is no mention of this as reason for discharge. Also, in the ordinary course of events, a death involving an accident with horses would only be a reason for commemoration if the man was still a serving solider but the newspaper article suggests these were all post-discharge deaths. It all reads to me that the researcher has been most fortunate on catching the MoD decision maker on an extremely good day. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 22 December , 2009 Share Posted 22 December , 2009 Hi John, The details of the men were with the MoD for over six months, and the researcher informs me that he had two other cases but without enough evidence to pursue them. I can understand the frustration regarding your own cases. I hope that you fare better with any future submissions and if there's any publicity involved that the press report the full details! Chances of that? Best wishes, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 7 January , 2010 Share Posted 7 January , 2010 Hi Richard. I'm looking into the life of Fred Topham, died 1918. A resident told me he died due to the war. I visit Metheringham every few months, due there again on Jan 11th. There's also a chap in Ruskington that's stumped me. Neil I live in Ruskington, give me a shout via PM if you want, I may be able to assist. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Hi DD, Only just seen your post. I'm back in Telford now, but i visited Ruskington and Sleaford last week. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Neil will have to pop in to see you next time im in Newport Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilEvans Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Chris, Please do. It would be nice to meet you. Newport is about 2 miles from where i live. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 17 January , 2010 Share Posted 17 January , 2010 Neil should be up there again in June for 2 weeks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerhunter Posted 24 January , 2010 Share Posted 24 January , 2010 Hi DD, Only just seen your post. I'm back in Telford now, but i visited Ruskington and Sleaford last week. Neil Hi Neil, Can you let me know where in Ruskington cemetery that burial is, please? I had a good look round yesterday but could not find it. Interestingly enough, there are many of the same families still in the village, and a lot of the names commemorated on the war memorial plaque in the Garden of Remembrance are still to be found in my son's school. I suppose that's the same all over the country, to be honest. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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