Abancourt POW Hospital?

[gordontaos]

My Great Uncle, Thomas Spence, Died of Wounds and was buried at Abancourt Communal Cemetary German Extension on April 2, 1918. He was in the Black Watch 1/7 and most likely extremely close to the Front on March 21, 1918. Since Abancourt was behind the German lines I can only assume that he was captured and then died while a POW.

Can anyone shed additional light on any of this information. Other than what I have written above, I have no information at all as to anything relating to the last 12 days of his life. Was Abancourt a POW hospital or Aid Station, or POW Processing Center? His unit was only about 20 KM from Abancourt on the first day of the offensive. I was thinking of contacting the IRC, but it is mighty expensive to have them say that they are sorry but no info is available.

Thank you so much for any assistance..

[KevinBattle]

Hello and welcome, Gordontaos

If you can, please edit your post as the Cemetery is actually BANCOURT, not Abancourt.

From the CWGC site you can obtain further details about Thomas and also about the Cemetery. In case you haven't seen the information, here it is:

Bancourt was occupied by Commonwealth forces in March 1917. It was lost a year later during the German offensive in the spring of 1918, but recaptured by the New Zealand Division (in particular, the 2nd Auckland Battalion) on 30 August 1918.

The cemetery was begun by the New Zealand Division in September 1918; the original cemetery is now Plot I, Rows A and B. The remainder of the cemetery was made after the Armistice when graves were brought in from the battlefields east and south of Bancourt and from certain Allied and German cemeteries, including:- BAPAUME RESERVOIR GERMAN CEMETERY, on the Bapaume Beaulencourt road, containing the graves of twelve soldiers from the United Kingdom buried by a German Field Ambulance in March and April, 1918, and of seven others and three from New Zealand who fell at the end of August, 1918.

BAPAUME ROAD CEMETERY, BEAULENCOURT, 500 metres South of the Beaulencourt-Gueudecourt road, containing the graves of 20 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in October, 1916.

BEAULENCOURT ROAD CEMETERIES, three in number, on the North-East side of Gueudecourt, containing the graves of 88 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in the autumn of 1916 or in April, 1917.

CLOUDY TRENCH CEMETERY, GUEUDECOURT, containing the graves of 40 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell in October or November, 1916. The five cemeteries last named were made by the 5th Australian Division in April, 1917.

FREMICOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION. This Extension was begun by the Germans, who buried in it 1,346 of their own soldiers and 136 officers and men from the United Kingdom who fell in March, 1918. It was taken over in September, 1918, by British and Dominion units, who used it for clearing the battlefields and for fresh burials, and added 94 graves. All the graves have now been removed to other cemeteries.

SUNKEN ROAD CEMETERY, LESBOEUFS, between Gueudecourt and Le Transloy, made by the 5th Australian Division in April, 1917. It contained the graves of 49 soldiers from the United Kingdom and one from Australia who fell in October, 1916.

The great majority of these graves dated from the winter of 1916-1917, the retreat of March 1918, or the advance of August-September 1918.

Bancourt British Cemetery now contains 2,480 burials and commemorations of the First World War. 1,462 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to 43 casualties known or believed to be buried among them, and to one soldier buried in Bapaume Reservoir German Cemetery, whose grave could not be found on concentration. The cemetery was designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens

From this you can see the items I have put in bold that there were 2 earlier Cemeteries whos graves were relocated into Bancourt. Other Pals may possess better knowledge as to which he may have been in, given the position of his unit in late March 1918.

You seem to have quite a bit of information as to his whereabouts up to the 21st March 1918, so presumably you have access to other documentation for that period. It appears however that you may not be aware that the Germans launched a massive attack which punched a great hole in the British lines until finally running out of steam in late April. Your great uncle was probably mortally wounded at the initial overwhelming of the front lines and was then taken captive and treated at a German Field Hospital where he succumbed to his wounds. Maybe others can shed more light for you as to where he may have been taken, but I hope this helps give some idea for you.

[gordontaos]

Thank you so much for your thorough reply. Unfortunately I was less than thorough in my initial post . I can easily understand the confusion. According to the CWGC, Thomas Spence was indeed buried at Abancourt Communal Cemetary German Extension on April 2, 1918, and not Bancourt. He was then reinterred in Flesquieres Hill British Cemetary some time after 1924. Since Abancourt is not listed anywhere, that is probably the cause of the confusion. It actually took six months for the CWGC to figure this out for me.

My understanding is that Cambrais was held by the Germans for virtually all of the war. It is also my understanding that the POW Processing centers were close to railroads. Abancourt has a rail line going right beside it, and because of its proximity to Cambrais, I am taking the huge leap of wondering if it was indeed not a POW transfer station. However, since only 38 British soldiers and four men of the Chinese Labour Corps were buried there in 1917-18, perhaps my leap is more one of faith than reality. I guess it might be helpful to know just how many Germans were buried in this cemetary, then we might be able to ascertain if it was a Field Hospital location. Or, perhaps someone knows if it was indeed the location of a Field Hospital.

So the question remains, why might 38 British soldiers and 4 Chinese Laborers have been buried at Abancourt as early as 1917 and at a time when it was at least 7KM behind the front? By my calculations it is also 20KM from where the 1/7 and Thomas Spence were on March 22, 1918. Might these POW's have been used as laborers to unload and load trains? Just what was going on in Abancourt in 1917-1918? Field Hospital, POW Processing Center, or Transshipment Point?

Should I invest the $ in an IRC search?

[Doug Johnson]

GordonTaos,

The fact that he died when and where he did means he was a PoW. Whether he died as a wounded PoW in a field hospital or as a PoW working behind the lines is the real question.

The place does not appear in my list of PoW locations behind the lines though this is far from comprehensive. It also does not appear in the "Behind the wire" list of places.

Rather than go to the ICRC it would be relatively cheaper to download the PoW reports from Pte David Mills, Cpl William Moyes and possibly L/Cpl A Harrower who were taken prisoner with the 1/7 Black Watch on or around 21st March 1918. I suspect the first two were wounded so their experiences may help understand what happened to Thomas and may eliminate the possibility of him being wounded. If the Black Watch were 20Km away from where he died then it is likely he was a PoW working behind the lines and he either died of illness (possibly as a result of malnutrition) or was killed by friendly fire as happened to a number of PoWs.

Doug

[gordontaos]

Thank you very much. I am certain that these documents will be helpful. Will update as soon as I know anything more.

Gordon

[Doug Johnson]

The National Archives "your archives" has on line transcripts of PoW reports here. Reading these will give you some idea of how PoW transport etc was organised. Generally, they were gathered together in the field (The Brits used cages to gather them together but the Germans less so). Then were then marched to the nearest suitable transport point which may be a considerable distance from the front. Accommodation was as often as not in the open and there does not seem to be any holding camps at the railways. The lack of handling facilities is probably a result of the way the war went. According to Doegen, there were some 20 thousand British PoWs in German hands by March 1915. The majority of these would have been taken during 1914 when the war was fluid. From then until June 1917, say some 30 months, only 25 thousand were taken, less than a thousand a month on average and mostly taken in batches depending on the British offensives being undertaken. There was therefore little need for permanent accommodation considering that this was across the whole of the British sector.

Doug

[gordontaos]

Thanks to some Canadian friends on another forum, new and exciting information has recently come to light about Abancourt. Maps in the posession of McMaster University, relating to Grid 51, and from 1918, clearly show Abancourt and the cemetery. They also show a symbol, that is labeled in the legend as a "red cross sign".

This symbol, a red rectangle with a red cross inside it, is located adjacent to the railroad spur/station shown on the maps. This symbol, and its location seem, to me, to verify that it was indeed a field hospital.

However, another symbol located in the middle of the town confuses me. It is a red circle with a red cross inside it. Does anyone know what this symbol may have meant in the context of 1918 Canadian Trench Maps? Does anyone have any additional information or resources to share relating to this thread?

Thanks so much for your help and guidance.

[Sue Light]

A red rectangle enclosing a red cross indicates an Advanced Dressing Station. A red circle enclosing a red cross indicates a Regimental Aid Post.

Sue

[gordontaos]

A red rectangle enclosing a red cross indicates an Advanced Dressing Station. A red circle enclosing a red cross indicates a Regimental Aid Post.

Sue

WhooHoo! Thanks for the quick reply!

Can you give me a link to a desciption of each, or explain the difference to me?

One would assume that I could tell just by the titles, but I have been burnt more than once when making assumptions.

Thanks again.

Gordon

[Sue Light]

Gordon

On reflection, it might not be quite that simple! I have some sketch maps here taken from the war diary of the Assistant Medical Director Medical Services, 6th Division, which are coloured, with hand-written keys. On those the symbols are as follows:

(the two as above)

Red rectangle enclosing diagonal red cross - Collecting Post

Red circle with inner blue circle - Field Ambulance Headquarters

Red rectangle enclosing blue cross - Divisional Rest Station

Solid blue rectangle - Divisional baths and laundry

The Official History, Medical Services, is printed in black and white, and so the symbols show up rather differently, and anyway are superimposed on printed and much more formal maps. So it's not possible to tell black from blue from white - and most are printed in reverse, i.e. white crosses on a black background. There they're shown as:

Black lozenge (diamond) enclosing white cross - Casualty Clearing Station

Black square enclosing white cross - Main Dressing Station

Black cross alone - Regimental Aid Post

Black circle enclosing white cross - Advanced Dressing Station

I assume that all the maps for the OH have been standardised, so perhaps you have to take your pick - sketch maps drawn by individual senior medical officers would have followed some rules, I'm sure, but really I suppose that any map is only as good as its own key.

Sue

[Doug Johnson]

For me there is a question that needs to be answered. If Abancourt was in German hands and was then presumably captured in the summer of 1918 by the Canadians? Does the map show the situation of the German field hospitals or the Canadian ones. It is possible that the two were the same but not necessarily so. There are captured German maps at TNA but I have no idea as to what they show.

Doug

[Sue Light]

I'm not sure I understand the military intricacies of this thread, but can I just throw something else into the pot, although it may well be irrelevant. There are quite a few mentions of Abancourt in the war diary of the Matron-in-Chief. In view of the position of Abancourt near Cambrai, this must be a different Abancourt. But it was the scene of several military medical units during the war - some of the diary extracts are below. So I wonder if somewhere along the line the two are being confused?

19/1/17

BRCS Hostel: DGMS forwarded a letter from Commissioner BRCS, with reference to opening a hostel at Abancourt for Nursing Sisters and VAD Nurses proceeding to Rouen, Havre and Etretat, as he was informed that they often had to spend a night there in consequence of missing the connection. Replied that it was not considered necessary, as Sisters travelling to those places could always stay the night at the Nurses’ Home, Abbeville, if unable to get straight through the same day, and it was thought that the difficulty was only a passing one.

20.10.17

Stationary Hospital, Abancourt: Application received from SMO Abancourt for a nursing staff of 2 Sisters, 4 Staff Nurses and 8 VADs for a Stationary Hospital at Abancourt, owing to the incompetence of the present type of orderly to deal with serious cases. Accommodation for this staff could be erected on ground near the hospital.

29/1/18

After dinner saw Surgeon-General Carr in connection with everything I had done during my absence. He is arranging to go to Etaples and visit the Surgical Laundry tomorrow. He told me that the staff for the new hospital at Abancourt will be required in a few days. As far as he can tell the work will not be very heavy and no battle casualties. He visited the unit today and found everything very nice.

2/4/18

Abancourt Stationary Hospital: Sent orders by wire for the complete nursing staff of Abancourt Stationary Hospital (10) to proceed to Rouen as this was considered advisable owing to the military situation.

Abancourt Stationary Hospital re-opened and was admitting on 1/7/18.

Sue

[Doug Johnson]

Probably the one in Oise, Picardy. Looks like a good place for a hospital, in the rear but not too far away to take serious cases.

Doug

[gordontaos]

THIS Abancourt is the one located just north of Cambrai, close behind German lines during the entire war, until it was liberated by the Canadians in late 1918.

The maps are of the areas behind the German lines, but were made by Canadians or perhaps other allied forces, prior to the liberation of the area.

After some research I have been able to find some of the differences between a Regimental Aid Station, Advanced Dressing Station, and Casualty Clearing Station.

The red cross inside a rectangle is located adjacent to a railroad spur and main line station. Perhaps it was a combined Advanced Dressing Station as well as a Casualty Clearing Station?

The red cross inside a circle is actually about one mile behind the railroad, and one mile further from the front,and inside the center of a town. It very well could be a Regimental Aid Station, for the troops stationed in that town. Is there a possibility that it could be a symbol for something else, or are we pretty positive as to what it is?

Thanks again for the thorough and quick replies.

[Guest juliadickson]

THIS Abancourt is the one located just north of Cambrai, close behind German lines during the entire war, until it was liberated by the Canadians in late 1918.

The maps are of the areas behind the German lines, but were made by Canadians or perhaps other allied forces, prior to the liberation of the area.

After some research I have been able to find some of the differences between a Regimental Aid Station, Advanced Dressing Station, and Casualty Clearing Station.

The red cross inside a rectangle is located adjacent to a railroad spur and main line station. Perhaps it was a combined Advanced Dressing Station as well as a Casualty Clearing Station?

The red cross inside a circle is actually about one mile behind the railroad, and one mile further from the front,and inside the center of a town. It very well could be a Regimental Aid Station, for the troops stationed in that town. Is there a possibility that it could be a symbol for something else, or are we pretty positive as to what it is?

Thanks again for the thorough and quick replies.

Hi stumbled across your correspondence yesterday and wanted to say that I visited Abancourt near Rouen last Saturday as I was tracing my great grandfather who was taken to Abancourt Hospital with bomb wounds before being transferred to Rouen where he unfortunately died from his wounds in June 1918. There are two Abancourts, this one is east of Rouen south of Aumule and the other north of Cambrai. I know there was a stationary hospital at Abancourt so I think Sue' s posting must refer to the one I visited.

[Doug Johnson]

Hi JuliaD,

Welcome to the forum. Did you actually find anything in Abancourt such as the location of the hospital?

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

I am coming to the conclusion that he was killed as a PoW rather than died of wounds. Is he listed in SDGW and if so what does it say? Have you a copy of his death certificate and is there a certificate at The National Archives amongst the PoW death certificates?

If the map was made prior to the British advance then the symbol may be misleading. There are examples of the Germans using tents with Red Crosses on to disguise munitions.

There were two PoW "camps" close to Abancourt, almost immediately due west.

There is a major military hospital at Cambrai.

12 days seems like a long time to be at an advanced dressing station. If you have downloaded the PoW reports I listed (they will only cost £3.00 each) they would tell you how long the wounded were at any one place. They will also probably tell you more about what the regiment was doing at the time. They might not be direct evidence but indirectly could tell you quite a bit. Unfortunately they are not ones I have.

Doug

[gordontaos]

I am coming to the conclusion that he was killed as a PoW rather than died of wounds. Is he listed in SDGW and if so what does it say? Have you a copy of his death certificate and is there a certificate at The National Archives amongst the PoW death certificates?

If the map was made prior to the British advance then the symbol may be misleading. There are examples of the Germans using tents with Red Crosses on to disguise munitions.

There were two PoW "camps" close to Abancourt, almost immediately due west.

There is a major military hospital at Cambrai.

12 days seems like a long time to be at an advanced dressing station. If you have downloaded the PoW reports I listed (they will only cost £3.00 each) they would tell you how long the wounded were at any one place. They will also probably tell you more about what the regiment was doing at the time. They might not be direct evidence but indirectly could tell you quite a bit. Unfortunately they are not ones I have.

Doug

In the SDGW it says he died of wounds. The Black Watch archivist also says that he died of wounds.

I have not been able to find the POW Death Certificates. How would I find them?

The maps are indeed from the period prior to the advance. Some of the maps show the Red Cross symbol, inside a rectangle, beside the railroad, some do not. Virtually all of the maps show a smaller red cross symbol, inside a circle, in the center of town, not too far from the cemetery where Private Spence was buried.

Can you give me some more information on where the two POW camps were that were west of Abancourt, or perhaps send me in the proper direction to research them?

The larger hospital in Cambrai makes sense, but then why would he have been buried 4 miles away?

12 days is indeed a long time. Right now the "conjecture" from the Black Watch and the CWGC is that he was wounded and captured on the 21st of March. My understanding is that very few men from the 7th made it past the 21st. But, he could indeed have been one of them. Am waiting to hear more from the Black Watch Archives. I e-mailed them 15 days ago and have heard nothing yet. Perhaps a telephone call is in order?

I did download the reports as you suggested some time ago. They were helpful, and interesting, but did not come close to answering any questions.

You folks are great!!

[Doug Johnson]

Gordon,

The death certificates for PoWs are an incomplete series mainly in French at The National Archives. They are not available on line. The 'S' ones are in RG35/54. I have no knowledge of what these certificates contain, who supplied them or whether they are correct in the cause of death. German death cerificates are known to be less than truthful when it comes to the cause of death.

The situation in the few days after the 21st March 1918 was chaotic and I doubt that it will ever become clear as to exactly what happened to every unit. Some were cut off but still fighting, others were scattered with men joining whichever unit they could find. Large numbers were taken prisoner, more than in the rest of the war put together! Of those taken prisoner a large number were held behind the lines to provide labour. Many of these killed or wounded by 'enemy' fire ie British, others died of starvation and excessive work. Some of those that died were in hospital at the time having been transferred there when they became to ill to work.

There is a Command Paper specifically dealing with PoWs captured during this period, CD9106 Miscellaneous No 19 (1918) Report on the Treatment by the Germans of Prisoners of War taken during the spring offensives of 1918

Information on the PoW "camps" behind the lines is very sketchy and is largely culled from the WO161 reports, extracts of which are in the above Command Paper and a second one covering other prisoners held behind the lines prior to March 1918. Most of these camps consisted of wire cages without accommodation and they were never visited by any neutral inspectors. There are likely to be hundreds of these camps but few are known. The two that I know of to the west of Abancourt are as follows;

Sauchy-Cauchy – as Sauchy-Lestrée

Sauchy-Lestrée – Sleeping accommodation very crowded.

These are from my notes and is about all the information known about them.

There was also a "camp" at Cambrai (Accommodation for 12 to a room. Sleeping on loose straw).

Many of these PoWs would be involved in moving munitions and other items and therefore could easily be working at rail yards, transferring equipment to the narrow gauge railways that moved such stuff to the front. These rail yards would be subject to shelling and to bombs dropped from aircraft.

If you could E-mail the reports I might be able to find more in them.

Doug

[gordontaos]

Gordon,

The death certificates for PoWs are an incomplete series mainly in French at The National Archives. They are not available on line. The 'S' ones are in RG35/54. I have no knowledge of what these certificates contain, who supplied them or whether they are correct in the cause of death. German death cerificates are known to be less than truthful when it comes to the cause of death.

The situation in the few days after the 21st March 1918 was chaotic and I doubt that it will ever become clear as to exactly what happened to every unit. Some were cut off but still fighting, others were scattered with men joining whichever unit they could find. Large numbers were taken prisoner, more than in the rest of the war put together! Of those taken prisoner a large number were held behind the lines to provide labour. Many of these killed or wounded by 'enemy' fire ie British, others died of starvation and excessive work. Some of those that died were in hospital at the time having been transferred there when they became to ill to work.

There is a Command Paper specifically dealing with PoWs captured during this period, CD9106 Miscellaneous No 19 (1918) Report on the Treatment by the Germans of Prisoners of War taken during the spring offensives of 1918

Information on the PoW "camps" behind the lines is very sketchy and is largely culled from the WO161 reports, extracts of which are in the above Command Paper and a second one covering other prisoners held behind the lines prior to March 1918. Most of these camps consisted of wire cages without accommodation and they were never visited by any neutral inspectors. There are likely to be hundreds of these camps but few are known. The two that I know of to the west of Abancourt are as follows;

Sauchy-Cauchy – as Sauchy-Lestrée

Sauchy-Lestrée – Sleeping accommodation very crowded.

These are from my notes and is about all the information known about them.

There was also a "camp" at Cambrai (Accommodation for 12 to a room. Sleeping on loose straw).

Many of these PoWs would be involved in moving munitions and other items and therefore could easily be working at rail yards, transferring equipment to the narrow gauge railways that moved such stuff to the front. These rail yards would be subject to shelling and to bombs dropped from aircraft.

If you could E-mail the reports I might be able to find more in them.

Doug

Now I see why you are a Lieutenant Colonel and I a mere corporal.

In reviewing the POW documents that you suggested that I download, and comparing the information to a map, I found that the POW's from his unit were being marched all over creation on work details. They were initially marched to a holding place north east of Cambrai, and then eventually marched to an area north west of Cambrai, working to repair roads, bury the dead, and collect shells.

They would have almost passed through Abancourt on these marches, and Private Spence could indeed have been split off from the rest onto another work detail.

In at least one of the locations mentioned the POWs were shelled by the allies. One of their compatriots died of exhaustion and exposure, and many had dysentery etc.

Yet again, I am indebted for your assistance.

[Doug Johnson]

I think the PoW reports and other circumstantial evidence almost conclusively suggest killed, wounded and died or died of other causes as a PoW rather than died of wounds received whilst engaging the enemy. If he was serious wounded he would probably have ended up in hospital in Cambrai. If not too seriously wounded he would have been sent back within a couple of days at the most and if only slightly wounded would have been treated as unwounded and probably would not receive treatment. The fact that he died where he did, which was a long way from where he was captured and is close to where others from the battalion were detained as PoWs working behind the lines is clearly significant. Died of Wounds as per SDGW may well have been based on the fact that he died 12 days after he was taken prisoner; not an unfair assumption really.

It is always worth checking the prisoner reports of those taken at the same time and in the same battalion. These particular ones were quoted in the Command Paper, though no names were mentioned. The camps behind the lines were really only known from these escaper reports. After the war, when the bulk of the PoWs were returned, nobody was interested in the camps, only in the treatment and any names of those causing ill treatment.

Doug

[gordontaos]

Thank you yet again. I am in the process of trying to identify the other men that were reinterred from Abancourt to Flesquieres Hill. It appears that all of the men buried at Flesquieres Hill, that died in March or April of 1918, may have come from Abancourt. I am waiting for a list of those men from Abancourt from the CWGC. Right now all of those who died during that time frame seem to be buried in section IV of Flesquieres Hill. Is anyone aware if there is a way to look up artillery fire missions or bombing missions for this period?