Early p1907 bayonet - and odd scabbard.

[4thGordons]

I recently bought this 1907 bayonet. I got it because of two features: it is dated 1908 and is therefore the first full year of production and has an ER Cypher (although modified with quillon removed and clearance hole added - presumably in its 1926 reissue)

The second reason was it was in an odd scabbard....that fits OK but is clearly not a 1907 scabbard. Although of roughly the same dimensions as the 07 scabbard the chape and tip are different. A quick scan through skennerton/richardson shows several similar scabbards (Pattern 1875 and Pattern 1879 although the tip looks to be the 1875 version) also similar to the Irish Constabulary pattern bayonet and several volunteer patterns.

Appreciate any comments or positive ID of the scabbard.

Also the bayonet dating looks interesting the 11 is very deeply struck - the 08 is however far lighter and of a different style of lettering.

Please see attached:

and the tip

[Gunner Bailey]

The scabbard may be a one off. I've seen such embellishments on sword bayonet scabbards from the 1860-70's. This may have been a repair using 07 leather work but older metal parts.

John

[Mike_H]

It looks as if the '07 has been put into the scabbard for a Turkish M1887 or 1890 bayonet which have an oval frog stud, 4 line decoration and flat tip to the chape. I have just tested with items from my collection and get a fit but the scabbard is about 1 1/8 inches longer than a proper '07 scabbard. Interesting that the throat is rivetted into the top mount rather than having a screw to retain it - haven't seen that on an '87 - '90 scabbard before. Look at the back of the mounts for a very small crescent mark.

Mike

[N White]

Perhaps a Japanese Murata scabbard? The 4 lines and scalloped edges are identical, and the book I have lists a blade length of 459mm vs 432mm for a 1907. The picture also shows a riveted mouth like yours, and the description calls it a "dead ringer" for the Turkish bayonets mentioned above.

[Mike_H]

Good thinking, I reckon you are right and it is a Murata Type18 (1885) scabbard. Looking carefully (which I should have done before!) the 4 lines are spaced just that tiny bit farther apart than those on the Turkish scabbards. Clincher will be if there are 2 very small rivets at each side on the back of the top mount holding the leather, I think I can see the smoothed of ends of these between the top and bottom pairs of lines in 4G's original photo of the top mount just showing as small circles. Can't tell why the '07 ends up in the Jap scabbard, think it is more likely to have happened after its time in service.

Mike

[4thGordons]

Good thinking, I reckon you are right and it is a Murata Type18 (1885) scabbard. Looking carefully (which I should have done before!) the 4 lines are spaced just that tiny bit farther apart than those on the Turkish scabbards. Clincher will be if there are 2 very small rivets at each side on the back of the top mount holding the leather, I think I can see the smoothed of ends of these between the top and bottom pairs of lines in 4G's original photo of the top mount just showing as small circles. Can't tell why the '07 ends up in the Jap scabbard, think it is more likely to have happened after its time in service.

Mike

Excellent - thanks very much gentlemen - this looks to be it.

Found pics which demonstrate all the elements you have indicated HERE.

So now I need to look for an early 1907 scabbard to go with my bayonet - and of course a bayonet to go with my scabbard...and perhaps a rifle to go with the bayonet and.....

thanks again

Chris

[4thGordons]

Gentlemen,

My apologies for not getting here sooner.. I've been attending a WW1 reenactment here in Southern California.

The scabbard in question has already been correctly identified as being that of the Turkish 1887-90 bayonet, and all markings are standard for the date/mark.

Seph

But the Murata has the rivets the Turkish ones don't.....right?

Chris

[findabetterole]

Gentlemen,

My apologies for not getting here sooner.. I've been attending a WW1 reenactment here in Southern California.

The scabbard in question has already been correctly identified as being that of the Turkish 1887-90 bayonet, and all markings are standard for the date/mark. The bayonet and scabbard were originally manufactured for Turkey by 'Alexander Coppel & Cie, Solingen'. I've attached a pic of the original cofiguration. The scabbard in question for the original posting is a Turkish manufactured replacement.

The markings for the '07' ricasso are nothing out of the ordinary, and quite common on Sanderson examples. The heavily stamped '11' is possibly a worker using a worn stamp, and is just making certain that the numeral gets through the inspection process. It seems to me that this particular worker may have had several items returned, so is making doubly sure that this batch does not come back!

Seph

***oooopps.... I deleted my original post some how!!

[4thGordons]

But Seph

Please have a look at the link I posted. If the bayonet shown on the site is correctly identified then I am 99% convnced this is what mine is - the details appear identical

My scabbard and the Murata scabbard has the chape attached by rivets (filed flat)- which do not seem to be present on the Turkish bayonet diagram you show - same fixing with the tip (whereas your picture shows a staple) .

Can you explain why you are so definitive that this is the Turkish pattern and not the Murata (Japanese) as suggested by MikeH and NWhite?

Chris

[findabetterole]

But Seph

Can you explain why you are so definitive that this is the Turkish pattern and not the Murata (Japanese) as suggested by MikeH and NWhite?

Chris

Chris,

Can you clear your PM box? Just tried sending, but your box is full.

Seph

[4thGordons]

Chris,

Can you clear your PM box? Just tried sending, but your box is full.

Seph

Thanks Seph

Done (but it wasn't full....?)

Chris

[trajan]

I have just checked all my Osmanli scabbard mounts, for 1887, 1890 and 1903, and all 5 have the throat screw (well, one is missing it!) and all have a small crescent in a circle on the back.