Somewhere on the Somme........

[Tom Morgan]

"Somewhere on the Somme" according to legend, is a crossroad or some other point where Julius Caesar is said to have reviewed his troops.

Does anyone know exactly where this place is?

Can anyone give any reference which confirms that Julius Caesar's winter quarters (before his invasion of Britain) was the Somme area?

Tom - having an Ancient History Day.

[Dragon]

Tom, I have a feeling from my undergraduate days that if this is the case, there is a slight chance it may be in Agricola of Tacitus. I will retrieve my translation of The Agricola and The Germania and have a look.

Otherwise, I would investigate Tacitus' Histories, perhaps. I presume you meant a classical source. From memory (and I may be wrong) the Annals are the second period of history and thus too late.

This is an operation which encompasses spider slaying and dust masks, so take cover…

Gwyn

[Guest Desmond6]

tried various browses for 'Somme Julius Road' etc etc

Came up with this - seems to have a fair bit of info and archaeology

http://www.deal.wisdom.co.uk/caesar.htm

[Dragon]

I will also look it up in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. It recalls the invasion.

(I know that Agricola is later than Caesar.)

Gwyn

[Peter Beckett]

Tom,

I have a copy of De Bello Gallico - Big Julies account of how he won the war

I will have a search and get back to unless some-one else beats me

Peter

[Dragon]

I was just going to suggest De Bellum Gallico - Caesar's own Commentaries -, but I haven't got a copy as Anglo Saxon is my period, not Roman. I see Peter has got there first!

'Tisn't in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle anyway, at least not in the translation, and I've not read the real thing for years. (Brain cells have largely been zapped since then.)

Gwyn

[Tom Morgan]

Wow! I didn't know we had so many classicists. All I can say is "Bis fiet gratum quod opus est si ultro offeras," to quote Publius Syrus. (Help is twice as welcome if offered unasked.)

To all those who are looking things up - thanks very much indeed. Gwyn - a modern reference which locates the place will be great but an authority such as Tacitus confirming that Caesar stayed there will be wonderful. (Or Caesar himself, Peter!) Desmond - I've had a look at the site you mentioned and found a reference by searching but I'll have to read a bit more to see what the writer means.

I do know that the Romans called the Somme "Samara" and its modern name is derived from this.

Tom

[Peter Beckett]

Tom,

haven't found a direct reference so far but the town of Bratuspantium is mentioned when he was advancing and I found another reference to it:

Bratuspantium cannot be identified with certainty. We only know that it was on or near the road by which Caesar marched from Noviodunum, which was almost certainly on the hill of Pommiers, about 21 miles north-west of Soissons, into the country of the Ambiani, whose chief town was Samarobriva (Amiens); and that it was not the same as Caesaromagus (Beauvais), the Gallo-Roman capital of the Bellovaci, which was built on virgin soil. It would be useless to mention here all the sites that have been proposed. There is something to be said for Breteuil, which is on a strong position near the Roman road from Soissons to Amiens, and close to which, in the valley of Vandeuil, a few Gallic and numerous Gallo-Roman antiquities have been found; but a French antiquary, Dr.V.Lebloud, who bas explored every yard of the country that belonged to the Bellovaci, prefers Mont-Cesar, between 6 and 7 miles ESE.of Beauvais. The hill is perfectly suitable for a stronghold: but it is about 251 feet above the plain; and this seems hardly consistent with Caesar's statement that when he was encamping on the outskirts of Bratuspantium `the women and children stretched out their hands from the wall ... and begged the Romans for peace'

I will get a modern map and do an overlay tomorrow but it must be close to the Somme

Thanks for asking a great question as its got me out of the trenches for a while and unlike Gwyn, I dont have to worry about spiders

Peter

[Dragon]

Bratuspantium cannot be identified with certainty. We only know

Ok. I know. Any mediums out there?

The first Forum seance will take place in the chat room at ...

Gwyn

[Tom Morgan]

What an interesting afternoon! Thinking back to De Bello Gallico which begins, as everyone who did Latin at school knows:

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae. "Gaul as whole is divided into three parts, one of which is inhabited by the Belgae." This is the only bit I can actually remember by heart.

A bit of Internet searching shows that there were two main areas in which the Belgae lived. The main one was Belgica Prima and the main towns were Samarobriva Ambianorum (Amiens) where the Ambiani lived, and Durocortorum Remorum (Reims) where the Remi lived. The Ambiani and the Remi were both Belgic tribes. Caesar subdued the Belgae who lived near Reims first and then moved on to Amiens and it seems that he spent the winter before the invasion of Britain, in Amiens. At least, that's what it says on some websites. Amiens is is the Department of the Somme, though not in what we would call "The Somme."

But I'm sure that I've heard that there is crossroad or something somewhere in the 1916 area, where Caesar is supposed to have reviewed his troops, or made a speech.

Tom

[Simon R]

Great stuff, but does anyone have accounts of soldiers getting any Roman material out of the trenches?

[Michelle Young]

Martin and Mary Middlebrooks the Somme Battlefields says that according to local legend, Caesar addressed his troops just outside the present day Longueval Rd Cemetery.

[Dragon]

Thinking back to De Bello Gallico which begins, as everyone who did Latin at school knows:

I didn't!! We read Peter Rabbit translated into Latin, and other similar works of literature. Or did B Potterius write it in Latin first, I can't remember, then it was translated into English by the Lake District Tourist Board?

Much more fun, from the sounds of it.

(Tom, I'm not a classicist; I'm an Eng Lit girl whose particular specialisms include early and Middle English, and history of English.)

Gwyn

[Somme1916]

Great stuff, but does anyone have accounts of soldiers getting any Roman material out of the trenches?

I've never personally seen any reference where soldiers found Roman artifacts while in the trenches. On the Somme Battlefield there are several Roman era sites so there is a good chance some items were found by Fritz and Tommy.

I did see a reference where a Tommy found a bronze era axe head on the Somme while he was digging a trench. Considering how long the Celts (aka Guals) used bronze tools you could make an argument that this axe head was from the Roman era, all though not of Roman origin or use.

I too am interested to learn more about Caesar on the Somme,

Jon

P.S. This is the first I'd heard about the Longueval Rd Cemetery legend, good stuff.

[Mark Hone]

One of the recent glut of archaeology programmes made the point that most local professional archaeologists are far more interested in Gallo-Roman remains and regard all this First World War stuff as a damned nuisance. I'm racking my brains to remember: I think it was in the Channel 4 'Secrets of the Dead' series and they had found what they thought was a massacre of Gallic warriors by the Romans. it was close to a CWGC cemetery and they drew obvious parallels. Perhaps someone can supply the location.

[Tom Morgan]

Martin and Mary Middlebrooks the Somme Battlefields says that according to local legend, Caesar addressed his troops just outside the present day Longueval Rd Cemetery.

Thanks very much for that, Michelle - that's all my questions answered then, I think. I found the reference in the book and that's one place I shall have to make slight detour to next week!

Tom

[Dragon]

Great stuff, but does anyone have accounts of soldiers getting any Roman material out of the trenches?

I have here Excavating memories: archaeology and the Great War, 1914 – 2001, Nicholas J Saunders, published in Antiquity, Vol 76, Number 291, March 2002.

Pages 102 – 103 refer specifically to Gallo Roman and other artefacts discovered during the War. Would you like me to post details? – or is it ok to scan the pages and post on here (maybe OCR it)? I would happily scan and email the article but I’m not sure about copyright issues.

Perhaps a separate question with appropriate heading would draw the attention of the Forum users who are experts on battlefield archeology.

Gwyn

[Paul Reed]

Michelle is quite right; Caeser was at Longueval. However, there is also a 'four armies crossroads' on the road junction between Mailly-Maillet and Amiens - I don't have a map in front of me to pinpoint the modern road numbers, but it is where you leave M-M and turn off north to proceed to Acheux and Louvencourt. There is a large farm building on the SW corner of the junction. It is also mentioned in Middlebrook's Somme guide, I believe.

[Tom Morgan]

Thanks Paul. That also rings a bell and I'll look it up.

Tom

[Tim Godden]

Hi There,

From memory I think that George Coppard finds a Roman sword in a crater in 'With a Machine-Gun to Cambrai'.

All the best,

Tim

[Christina Holstein]

The Germans certainly dug up some Gallo-Roman stuff in the Pont-à-Mousson area (around Norroy, to be precise). I have a couple of photos of an altar and a sarcophagus being excavated and I've seen the altar in Metz museum. The curator of Metz museum at the the time was in charge of cutural artefacts in the German occupied area and that included archeological finds.

Christina

[Peter Beckett]

Tom,

I could find no reference to Caesar addressing his troops at Longueval in De Bello Gallico

Actually found no references to speeches at all.

Still, it was enjoyable reading and I must admit to liking the Roman roads that cross the battle fields especially the road from Albert to Bapaume past the Windmill. (D929)

Peter

[Simon R]

Dragon,

I've been after that Saunders article for a while now and need to read it before I put pen to paper myself on the subject. I can get it from the Yorkshire Archaeological Soc. library, if I get my finger out.

Christina,

I've been after exactly this kind of a reference from the German point of view for a long time - this infers that the German army had a mechanism for excavating and curating archaeological material.

I've talked about this elsewhere on the forum before, this is the first time anyone's come up with evidence to confirm what I thought.

[Andrew P]

No.2335 Pte Julius Augustus Caesar of Queen Victoria St Fremantle served in the 14th Light Horse Regiment so he never got to Longueval , though his brothers Henry & Percy were in France with the 51st Battalion & Australian Flying Corps respectively and could quite possibly have been there.