Foot Guards 'Trade' badges

[Muerrisch]

Hope mods will indulge me a little: the subject has not been aired to my knowledge ....... even if full dress was conspicuous by its absence in Great War.

Staying strictly with Foot Guards Full Dress/ Tunic Order 'Trade' badges,

and starting pre 1914:

All relevant regs., PVCN and RACD ledgers show badges as being made in gold on scarlet or blue, but photographic evidence is on the side of scarlet, whereas artists' impressions [and Peter Walton] favour blue quite often. Definitely both varieties manufactured, as they are [were] easily obtained by collectors eg. the crossed rifles series of 5 badges. I believe the blue was intended for cavalry and the RA where relevant, and scarlet for infantry and RE. [Rifles green of course].

1914: full dress abandoned except for Household troops, bands etc.

1913 - 1920 introduction of many badges: MG wreath LG wreath, HG wreath, etc.

1920-1940: PVCN lists scarlet or blue,but where are the scarlet badges post-1913? Not in photographs, and not in collections as far as I am aware. I have several inter-war photos Guards clearly on blue. The badges 'missing' in collections are the 1913-on new types.

Possible theory: why bother to make on scarlet ONLY for Guards? Such badges very expensive to make.. Much more economical to make one backing apply to Full Dress and No.1 Dress.

More recently: Military Modelling series July 1991 [easily the most thorough of anything I have ever seen] has only one badge on scarlet: the 'light bulb'. All the rest are illustrated by photographs in bullion on blue.

Mil Mod. said that the only badges to be worn on Full Dress were: the three para. badges, the Commando knife, and the crossed hatchets.

So, this might be the case:

since, say, 1900: all RANK badges on scarlet [edged, where appropriate with blue] except CSM and CSgt Colour badge, the colour being on blue, Good Conduct badges on scarlet, and, until 1914 all 'Trade' badges on scarlet, and since 1918 [or when stocks ran out] all 'Trade' badges on blue.

Comments please?

[Staffsyeoman]

Hmmm... I always believed that the scarlet light bulb was intended for mess kit, even though I have seen plenty of scarlet mess kits with dark blue backed para wings. (I am also told that scarlet-backed bullion SAS wings are a 'fantasy piece').

[Muerrisch]

Thank you:

somewhere [where all the 'I know I have one somewhere' items are] I have a Guards officer, full dress, light bulb on scarlet ..........

I have a photo RSM Chant [RIP] with dark blue para wings on full dress too!

This is a very complicated subject, peopled with lots of experts who pick up their info. at Militaria shows and rarely have any documentary proof, always citing custom and practice .............

[Graham Stewart]

Grumpy,

While not knowing much in the way of Guards trade badges and relevant bullion backings, I think you do something to go on regarding "blue" backing replacing that of scarlet for these badges. With the demise of scarlet for the infantry and RE, except for officers and bands, post 1920 and beyond would see "blue" patrol's taking precedence for wear and as such there would be an increased demand for bullion badges with a blue cloth backing.

Scarlet backed bullion badges would not necessarily have been exhausted as units would probably hold only a certain amount in stock, having to place orders as and when, which is more or less how the system works today. Once the production of scarlet backed bullion badges ceased, those remaining with units would probably be recalled to Clothing Depot's for destruction.

This is based on a conversation with my old friend and military illustrator Bob Marrion, who had the pleasure to visit one of the last Clothing Depot's in the 1970's and his description of what he found there left me "agog". He found rolls of ordnance printed Div patches dating from WWII, scarlet clothing which was to be cut up, Dagroon helmets awaiting destruction and so on. However and probably fortunately for collectors MOD cottoned on to the fact there was a market for this stuff and so they could recuperate money from MOD Militaria auctions/sales which they held.

Having digressed slightly there, I would think there would be no option, but for the Guards to except what was going. However units can place orders for badges of an "unusual and historical" significance but as long as it's "not at public expense" - which I believe is the term used.

[Muerrisch]

Graham, many thanks, I broadly agree BUT [always a but]

PVCNs throughout the inter-war years continue to list scarlet backings to 'trade' badges as an alternative to blue.

Either they were not made [in which case the pre-war general rule 'scarlet badge backing on scarlet tunic/frock, blue on blue, black or green on rifle green' could not be followed] or, if they were made, for whom! I now have a slack handful of Guards photos 1920 to 1908 clearly showing only the blue versions: LG, marksman, B in wreath, wheel for example.

I am going to start a thread appealing for Guards photos each side of Great War ...... it may be that the Guards never adopted the scarlet on scarlet rule for badges other than rank.

[Muerrisch]

There is general consensus among the Master Tailors of the Foot Fuards and the staff of the Guards Museum that, for the Home Service Tunic:

with the sole exception of the RSM large badge which has a scarlet backing, all rank and 'trade' badges past and present were/ are on dark navy blue.

For officers, such few 'trades' worn were/are on scarlet.

Anyone able to PROVE exceptions please step forward.

[CT-Guards]

Feet firmly planted, no stepping forward from me!