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Remembered Today:

Sapper Herbert Payne


DebB
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My great uncle - Herbert Payne (Royal Engineers 527th) died of wounds on 17th Feb 1917.

He is buried at Bethune Town Cemetery.

From information re: Long Long Trail, I understand he was in 5th Division.

Can I conclude that he was involved in the Actions of Miraumont(17-18 Feb 1917)?

Can anyone tell me how far the wounded might be taken and is it true that the average time to die from wounds would be about half a day?

Thanks

Deb

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Deb

His unit War Diary,in the WO95 series at the National Archives,will show their daily position(s). In the plural because I have often seen that Sections of a Field Coy are deployed in more than one place. The Diary is likely to show casualty numbers of wounded/dead/missing/sick,but for Other Ranks not often their names. If there were several instances of wounded it would be difficult to tie down when and where your GU received his wounds. But to be positive,you might be lucky to see his name in a wounded list. Here I would normally add the Diary number but the NA Catalogue is playing hard to get this evening. You might also note that before it was 527 Field COy RE it was 2nd Durham Field Coy RE and there will be two Diaries if you happen to have the date he entered a War Theatre and you want to read where he served etc.

In respect of the length of time he might have fought his wounds it would be hard to generalise. It is a fact that Bethune was a treatment centre and the local Cemetery contains many casualties from those RAMC units.

Sotonmate

PS He had two service numbers by the way, (T)2015 and 471421,the second one was part of the 1917 re-numbering of the RE Territorial Force. The Medal Index Card suggests that he entered his first theatre of war after Dec 1915. His Medal Roll reference is RE/101B176 page 41887,this will show the issue of two campaign medals,the British War and the Victory.

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Sotonmate

Thanks for the help. No doubt you can tell I'm a complete novice at this!

I have found all the info regarding his Medal Index Card. I'm not quite sure how to find the correct diary, having looked on the NA Catalogue should I be looking at WO95/120 (I'm confused by all the sub-sections) I would be appreciate any further help.

Another silly question - Reading other posts I understand that a Sapper had to prove his ability regarding his trade before being able to join the Royal Engineers. On the 1911 census my Great Uncle's occupation is a portmeaneau maker (hand-made leather travelling bags, as I understand) I can see how his skills would be useful re: saddles, harnesses etc. but would he be in the "engineers" or would it simply be that he had a change of career between 1911 and him joining up?

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I have found all the info regarding his Medal Index Card. I'm not quite sure how to find the correct diary, having looked on the NA Catalogue should I be looking at WO95/120 (I'm confused by all the sub-sections) I would be appreciate any further help.

Deb

There are three War Diaries for 527 Field Company held at the NA, Kew. Unfortunately none are available to download so a trip to Kew would probably be needed to view them all.

This link will take you to the relevant references.... http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...&image1.y=0

Regards

Steve

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Deb

WO95/1534. I can take a look on my next visit in a couple of weeks and see what it says about casualties for the days around the 17th and where they were,subject to the Diary being available.

Sotonmate

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  • 3 weeks later...

Deb

I have some pages from the War Diary WO95/1534 and now need you to PM your e-mail address so that I can forward them.

Sotonmate

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Sotonmate

I have looked in the help files and following the instructions

I have added you as a friend and tried to PM you but

I get a message as follows : "You are not allowed to use the messenger feature on this board"

What am I doing wrong? :rolleyes:

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I get a message as follows : "You are not allowed to use the messenger feature on this board"

What am I doing wrong? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately you haven't posted enough yet to enable that feature. You need to post 10 times before access to the PM feature is activated.

Only five to go ;)

Steve

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Well maybe I can ask another question - I have another relative who was born 1875

my Dad's Grandfather - Dad remembers being shown a red tunic and being told that his grandfather Walter Warburton was a colour sergeant - would he have been too old for WW1 ?

I have no other information on him

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I wonder if anyone can help educate me - re my earlier question.

I'm not looking for a specific answer about my Great Uncle but would like to know what skills/trades were required to be in the Royal Engine

How might his trade as a portmanteau maker be useful

Deb

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Deb

The seven Diary pages for 1 to 17 Feb 1917 are quite faint. They are at a location called GORRE,they were there for most of the month, I can't find it on my Michelin so can't say where it is/was but I expect someone here will know. On the 17th the Diary states one Officer and one Other Rank wounded,and both subsequently died.No name for the OR given though,but I guess this must be Sapper Payne.

I await your 10th post and will send the pages when you PM me.

Sotonmate

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Deb

I have seen service records where there is reference to a trade test in order to enter the RE. As Herbert had a skill I am sure the Army were looking to develop that to their own uses,so he probably passed the test and was appointed to a Field Company. Have you seen the page on Field Companies in the Long Long Trail ?

http://www.1914-1918.net/whatfieldcoy.htm

Sotonmate

(nearly there !)

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Would the Engineers be sent in first - to build the infrastructure as such.

If they were building or whatever, would they have been given "cover" if they came under fire?

Would they be equiped to fight too and given the same amount of training?

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Thanks Sotonmate and Steve for all your help

I'll look again at the long long trail.

I'm so glad I found you - you've been really generous in helping me

THANKS Deb

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Deb

You could ask another question,but if you give the name of your Dad's Grandad there might be some help here. Make sure it's the full name. They all wore red coats then,so it would be helpful if you had any idea of a Regiment etc ! He would have been 40 when WW1 began,not so old,particularly as he was a regular soldier with skills to use, or to impart to others in the training mode.

Sotonmate

Edit: Nuts,I missed his name on your post !!

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Deb

There are 11 soldiers with the name Walter Warburton in the Medal Index Cards on Ancestry UK. None are Colour Sergeants,in fact all are either Privates or Gunners,the basic rank, and I wouldn't have expected him to re-start as a Private if he had completed his service before WW1 and came back into the Army from the Reserve in 1914.

There are three others but with a second Christian name,again none are Colour Sergeants,initials Walter B,Walter Herbert and Walter T.

He may have been in the Army but in a training mode,where he would not have gone into a war theatre,as he may not have qualified for medals.

Sotonmate

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Sotonmate

Thanks , yes they were the only records I could find too.

What you suggest sounds right because (although its would be about 70 years ago that Dad was shown the tunic) he can't remember any medals !

Deb

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