alf mcm Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 The book 'The War on Hospital Ships 1914-1918' mentions thay Sub Lieutenant G.S.Holbeck, who died at Haslar Naval Hospital, Gosport, on was the only casualty from the grounding of Braemar Castle. The author notes that a Sub Lieutenant Gilbert Steuart Holbeck {or Holbech} from H.M.S. Syria, died at Haslar on 25/08/1916. I have looked at the CWGC website, and cannot find G.S.Holbeck of Braemar Castle. Were these 2 men the same person, and was G.S. Holbeck mistakenly identified. If so, then who actually died on Braemar Castle. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Alf Union Castle's Roll of Honour gives one name,a Sub-Lt, spelt G.S.Holbeck,who died in Haslar Hospital and is attributed to the Braemar Castle,grounded on 23.11.1916, a few weeks after the second-named died in Haslar. Maybe a search of Naval officer records at Kew will answer your question. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Neither return spelling matches with those initials amongst the online data bases for RN or RNVR officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 28 September , 2009 Share Posted 28 September , 2009 Not sure that there being no match among RN or RNVR officers is that much of a surprise. Would think RNR would be the more likely, but those files aren't online yet. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esskay Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Strange - death registration records only come up with the one - but apparently before the date Braemar Castle grounded In the Jul/Aug/Sep qtr of 1916 - which ties in with the 25th August date Holbech Gilbert S 25 Alverstoke 2b 616a He appears to be the one on CWGC that ties up with Navy deaths - all ranks- on FMP that also only have Holbeck Gilbert S (Ty Sub Lt) from HMS Syria and the year 1916 Cheers Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonharley Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 According to the October, 1915 "Navy List" there were only two Holbecks in the Royal Naval Reserve - G. S. and Horatio Holbeck, both Sub Lieutenants; G. S. Holbeck having been appointed to H.M.S. "Syria" on 8 March, 1915. Also in October there were no Holbecks or Holbechs in the R.N.V.R. or the R.N. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Hello From the Admiralty Officer Death Card index. Only Gilbert S. Holbech is listed. On the books of SYRIA, he died of an abcess of the lung on 25 August 1916. All best don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 29 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Thanks to you all for your replies. This is still a mystery. It seems that G.S. Holbeck, from Braemar Castle, has not been listed on the CWGC website, he does not apppear in RN, RNVR or RNR records, and only seems to appear on the Union Castle Roll of Honour. The only conclusion I can come to is that there was a mistake made, either by Union Castle Line, or Haslar Hospital, and the person known as G.S. Holbeck from Braemar Castle was in fact someone else {perhaps with a similar name}. This does not explain why he is not on the CWGC website. That, however, is only my opinion, and I would welcome any other explanations. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 Alf. From Simon's information, could it be that the other Holbeck (the one serving on Braemar Castle) was actually Horatio but when someone checked with the Admiralty, i.e. please confirm the given name of Sub-Lieut. Holbeck, RNR, of the Braemar Castle who drowned, the incorrect details were given due to the confusion between the two. As only one Holbech(k) is commemorated by the CWGC for 1916, it sounds like a possible non-commemoration case. A little confusingly, The Times, on 25 Nov 1916, announced in large headlines: BRAEMAR CASTLE SUNK, NO LOSS OF LIFE. But then added at the end of the article: ATHENS, Nov. 24.- A telegram from Syra states that the Braemar Castle was torpedoed near the Isle of Tino. Passengers and crew were saved, with the exception of one, who was drowned.- Exchange Telegraph Company. Unfortunately they did not name that person. As we know, she wasn't torpedoed but mined. To move forward with the non-commemoration, the CWGC would require certain documentation. It still seems strange that some records are only turning up one. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 I think all the Horatios are accounted for; Births Sep 1846 Holbech Horatio Southampton 7 195 Births Jun 1887 Holbech Horatio S. Stoneham 2c 72 Deaths Dec 1926 Holbech Horatio H 59 Romford 4a 441 Deaths Sep 1927 Holbech Horatio 40 St.Geo.H.Sq. 1a 396 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spithead Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 According to the 1901 census Horatio was Gilberts brother, so there were two Holbecks, Horatio born 1888 and Gilbert 1891. Perhaps G.S. Holbeck was hospitalised on the ship, on his way home, hence the confusion. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 So the elder Horatio is the father of both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spithead Posted 29 September , 2009 Share Posted 29 September , 2009 So the elder Horatio is the father of both? Yes, thats correct. He died sometime prior to 1901 leaving his wife Alice as head of household. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 Hi John, See my post above regarding the possible two births and deaths. Horation the elder is listed as an unmarried ship's master in 1881 so could he have been away at sea at the time of census? (Not that it's at all relevant!) IPT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spithead Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 Hi John, See my post above regarding the possible two births and deaths. Horation the elder is listed as an unmarried ship's master in 1881 so could he have been away at sea at the time of census? (Not that it's at all relevant!) IPT Hello IPT I see your point, its just that the 1901 census has Alice down as a widow. Regards john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 30 September , 2009 Share Posted 30 September , 2009 Ah yes, my maths was out by 20 years there. I think the elder one in my first post is the one who appears on the 1911 census as "Holbeck". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 30 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2009 I did a search on Geoff's Search Engine for 23/11/1916 to see if there were any relevant naval deaths, but without any luck. I was going on the assumption that someone else was mistaken for G.S.Holbeck. It seems fairly certain, from reports of the time that someone died that day. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeZe Posted 30 October , 2022 Share Posted 30 October , 2022 (edited) Hi Alf McM, Working on a Braemar Castle timeline and have been trying to find how many and if possible who died when she hit a mine on 23 November 1916. Some sources quote four died. Did you come to the conclusion Sub Lieutenant G.S.Holbeck wasn’t involved. Since this post was started there’s more info on the web. I have found a first hand account here: https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/courier-archive/news/diaries-reveal-harrowing-experiences-of-first-world-war-nursing-sisters-2995872 Nursing Sister Emily Eliza Edwardes (Canadian) was on leave on board and stated “Five lives, all wounded soldiers, were lost; killed in their hospital cots on the ship; one more died in the small boats, and was subsequently buried with military honours on the island of Syra where we were landed,” I’ve checked CWGC Syra New British Cemetery 67 casualties for these burials but cannot see any matches. I would have thought the names of those who died would have been known at the time. Q.A.I.M.N.S.R. Sister Gertrude Agnes KELLY nee´ FENN also kept a diary. Unfortunately, I do not think it is on the web, but have found this page: https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Gertrude-Fenn-World-War-One-Nurse/ A/Matron Edith Elton BOTT & Q.A.I.M.N.S.R. Staff Nurse Annie Stirling HOUSTON / Mrs INGLIS signatures are on the page. Can you make out the names of any other nurses amongst all the ships engineers? (I'm looking under & left of the ship photo) Thanks. regards ZeZe Edited 30 October , 2022 by ZeZe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 30 October , 2022 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2022 ZeZe, It looks like G.S. Holbeck didn't die on Braemar Castle, but I don't know who did die. The 5th man appears to be Private George Moffat, Cameronians {Scottish Rifles};- https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/627083/g-moffat/ https://www.snwm.org/roll-search/?id=761196&searchid=4c8c6dfc1c452b717325aac28264c068&page=1 I can't see any more nurses on the Gertrude Fenn link. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeZe Posted 30 October , 2022 Share Posted 30 October , 2022 Hi Alf McM, I wasn't reading the Edwardes statement correctly. I was trying to find all six soldiers buried on the island not just the one who survived for short while. Given DoD is 24 November 1916, I agree Pte George Moffat would be the most likely. Thanks. regards ZeZe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy26 Posted 4 November , 2022 Share Posted 4 November , 2022 Hi, 24881 Pte George Moffat 11th Scottish Rifles was killed in this incident and is buried at Syra. He was either wounded or sick from the Salonika campaign and on-board the Hospital ship when it struck a mine, the 11th Bttn were in Greece 1915-18. Other details i have are : Born Glasgow. Enlisted Glasgow 1916. NoK - Brother : William Moffat. Entitled War & Victory medals. Would be good to find out his DoB or anything else about him? Cheers, Smithy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 4 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2022 Smithy, This family tree on Ancestry has a copy of his birth certificate. George Gordon Moffat - Facts (ancestry.co.uk) Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeZe Posted 6 November , 2022 Share Posted 6 November , 2022 Hi, Further ‘Googling’ has found three more soldiers who probably died in the explosion on HMHS Braemar Castle and a further two possibilities. Excerpt of the inscription on the Mikra Memorial Plaque, Greece ……….’of two men of the forces of the United Kingdom drowned from the hospital ship 'Braemar Castle' on the 23rd November, 1916’……... Below are the most likely matches: Private Robert William Mark BUSHILL, Service Number: 14764, Royal Fusiliers, 3rd Bn. Date of Death: Died 23 November 1916, Age 24 years old Buried or commemorated at Mikra Memorial, Greece Private Joseph DOYLE, Service Number: 27330, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, 7th Bn. Date of Death: Died 24 November 1916 Buried or commemorated at Mikra Memorial, Greece * * * * * Link https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/23597-braemar-castle/ GWF CarylW was researching George PIERCY 2nd Bn. East Yorkshire Regiment 23214 who was injured in Salonika and was evacuated and on his way to Malta on board the hospital ship HMT/HMHS Braemar Castle when it struck a mine as detailed above. ‘He died on 24.11.16 and according to his service record he 'Died at sea from a fractured skull and multiple wounds after an explosion on HMT Braemar Castle' He is remembered on the Doiran Memorial, so no known grave. Am I right in assuming that he would have been buried at sea? Apart from the documentary evidence in his service record,’ * * * * * CWGC – two other men commemorated on the Doiran Memorial for that date, Unfortunately it appears their service records haven’t survived, so unable able to confirm or disprove if they were also on board HMHS Braemar Castle on 23rd November 1916: David George SMART, Service Number: 18826, Gloucestershire Regiment, 2nd Bn. Date of Death: Died 24 November 1916, Age 36 years old Lance Corporal C DYSON, Service Number: 18807, King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, 1st Bn. Date of Death: Died 24 November 1916 regards ZeZe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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