Overseas chevrons

[Jan Nix]

Pals

Did time spent as a POW count towards entitlement for overseas chevrons?

Kind regards

Jan

[Muerrisch]

I am away frommy AO collection but I think the answer is:

initially NOT,

but that this was amended.

PM me if someone else does not give a definitive answer and I will pursue the amendments

[Jan Nix]

Many thanks for the offer, Grumpy. I'll take it up if no other replies.

And I thought I was asking a simple question

Regards

Jan

[wizard2250]

My grandfather was a POW for 18 months but I have no idea if he was awarded overseas stripes because he was with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. I'm not sure if they were considered any differently because they were a British colony. I can tell you that, on discharge, all time served as a POW was included in his total days served so one would assume ( I know I shouldn't do that ) that any stripes or pay(?) would be awarded upon release/discharge. Please, Oh Ye Forum Members Of Great Knowledge, let me know what I have presumed incorrectly!

Is there anywhere in the service records that would indicate the number of overseas stripes awarded?

thanks,

shawn

[punjab612]

Photo of two of my Gt Uncles, both taken prisoner in October 1914, seems to show they got the Overseas chevrons

Peter

[jay dubaya]

both taken prisoner in October 1914, seems to show they got the Overseas chevrons

but no red stripe for 1914 appears on the cuff. Overseas chevrons were sanctioned during December 1917 and did initially exclude PoW

The following is an extract taken from a statement given to the House of Commons by Cpt. Charles Craig in October 1918. The whole statement can be found here

I can quote two—more than two, four—very significant facts which I think will bear out my contention that the view of the War Office was that when we were taken prisners we were of no further use, that the country had plenty of other things to look after, and that it was not their business to bother about prisoners of war till the War was over. The 1914 star was granted to people who took part in the early part of the War. At first it was not intended to give it to prisoners of war. Probably there was an agitation 1325 by some friends of prisoners of war, and at last it was agreed that it should be given to them, but it was given grudgingly. It was intimated to them that it was only provisional, it was stated in so many words—I believe in the Army Orders—that they were liable to have the star taken from them if, after the War, it was found that their conduct when taken prisoner was not correct and proper. Any soldier or sailor may be covered with decorations from top to bottom, but if he be guilty of cowardice, or if he be found to have given himself up without proper cause, every single one of his decorations and medals will be ripped off his coat. That is known to every soldier and sailor; but in this case the War Office rubbed it in, so to speak, and put it into the Army Orders that this 1914 ribbon was only given provisionally, and that it was liable to be taken away as soon as prisoners of war came back. A worse case was with regard to the chevrons granted for length of service, and I ask the attention of the House very particularly while I describe what happened. It was decided that prisoners of war were not to be allowed to count the time that they were in prison camps for the extra chevrons and this was the nice, gentle way in which the War Office made that intimation to the prisoners of war. In the Army Orders of January of this year they say: The qualifying service for additional chevrons need not be continuous. It will include periods of leave up to one mouth, where the individual returns overseas at the conclusion of such leave. This is the part to which I want to draw attention— Periods of absence without leave, in prison or detention, in hospital from sickness due to avoidable causes, or in captivity as a prisoner of war will be excluded when calculating the twelve months required to qualify for an additional chevron. The House will realise that the unfortunate prisoner of war is grouped together with persons who have been absent without leave, namely, deserters, persons who are in prison or detention, namely, the drunkard, or the person who has done some criminal act, and persons who are in hospital from sickness due to avoidable causes. We all know that is the man suffering from a self-inflicted wound or from venereal disease. Those are the people with whom the prisoners of war are coupled in this Army Order. I say it is a disgrace. If the War 1326 Office thought that prisoners of war should not have been granted these chevrons, they should have taken care to have intimated that fact in some way without bracketing prisoners of war with the people I have mentioned. There is another thing. One of the Mercantile Marine captains, to whom, as I have said before, the country perhaps owes quite as much as it does to its Army or Navy, on arrival of the tender of the hospital ship in the Wash, a few days ago, was approached by an individual in military uniform and asked: "Have you any means?" The Mercantile Marine captain very properly told him to mind his own business. The officer said: "I only ask you because if you have not any means we have a small fund out of which we can pay for your tickets from Boston to London." That means that while military officers get a free pass to London, a member of the Mercantile Marine, who has, while in Germany and Holland, been treated like any other officer, has to pay his own fare to London.

cheers, Jon

[Muerrisch]

AO 361 1918 amended the oder to include POW eligibility. And about time too!

[Jan Nix]

Excellent info, everyone. Thank you very much Jon and Grumpy for such detailed replies.

Peter, that's a lovely photo. My great uncle also had four overseas chevrons. I don't know where or when he was taken prisoner, but the first reference I have is a newspaper report of April 22nd 1915, so it was quite early on.

Shawn, I've been fortunate enough to find service records for two of my relatives but award of overseas chevrons (or anything similar) is not mentioned anywhere.

Thanks again to all

Jan

[Ghost]

Overseas chevrons should be added to the Insights on TLLT. I'm sure someone who has all the facts could write up a concise summary.

Alan

[pmaasz]

I know there have been several threads about the overseas chevrons, but have not been able to determine, yet, whether time out for being wounded or sick was deducted from the qualifying twelve months to earn a chevron. Can someone clarify for me? Thanks.

[Muerrisch]

sick or wounded usually counted, but not a self-inflicted wound.

[pmaasz]

many thanks. PM