Serrated-edged bayonet blades

[sykikcabbage]

Hello everyone!

I'm trying to disentangle what may be urban myth from historical fact. I've read what seems to be a rather ill-informed claim on another forum that in the early stages of the war, German infantrymen were sometimes issued with a bayonet whose blade had a serrated edge. What purpose such a blade might have been intended to serve isn't clear, but these same comments speak of a deeply unfavourable reaction to the new bayonet: that it was frowned upon as "too dirty" for close-quarter fighting, that it was soon withdrawn from service, and that if any Geman soldier was found in possession of such a bayonet when he was taken prisoner he could expect pretty short shrift from his captors.

I'm somewhat skeptical about such a claim. I've seen German soldiers depicted in British and French propaganda posters (circa 1915) as carrying bayonets that resemble breadknives; hardly a reliable source, I know, but was there ever a grain of truth in it?

[RobL]

I'm not up to scratch on German kit, but I was under the impression that the 'sawback' bayonets were used by the Engineers section of the German Army

[Gunner Bailey]

Hello everyone!

I'm trying to disentangle what may be urban myth from historical fact. I've read what seems to be a rather ill-informed claim on another forum that in the early stages of the war, German infantrymen were sometimes issued with a bayonet whose blade had a serrated edge. What purpose such a blade might have been intended to serve isn't clear, but these same comments speak of a deeply unfavourable reaction to the new bayonet: that it was frowned upon as "too dirty" for close-quarter fighting, that it was soon withdrawn from service, and that if any Geman soldier was found in possession of such a bayonet when he was taken prisoner he could expect pretty short shrift from his captors.

I'm somewhat skeptical about such a claim. I've seen German soldiers depicted in British and French propaganda posters (circa 1915) as carrying bayonets that resemble breadknives; hardly a reliable source, I know, but was there ever a grain of truth in it?

The standard German bayonet of the time was called the Butcher Bayonet by the British because of the obvious similarity to a butchers knife. A small percentage of German bayonets were of the sawback variety. I think it was about 1 to 30 and sometimes NCO's had them. There are stories of British troops executing Germans found with them because they could cause ghastly wounds. In 1917 the Germans stopped issuing them for this reason. Apparantly they were still made into the 1930s for ceremonial use. I have a relic sawback and will put a photo up if I can.

The comment on the other forum was not ill informed.

John

[centurion]

e've had this before. Saw backed bayonets were issued to the pioneers of many nations in the 19th century and the practice/tradition continued up to WW1. See extract from something I wrote earlier

Attempts were made to retain a useful role for the edged weapon and this sometimes produced some unconventional designs. One such was the saw bayonet, a fearsome looking implement that was issued in some numbers. This was a species of sword bayonet, a concept first introduced in the British army at the beginning of the 1800s when the Baker sword bayonet was issued to riflemen. The Baker rifle was shorter than the Land service musket in use by most British line regiments of foot and so needed a longer bayonet if its user was to have the same reach as his contemporaries in the infantry. The longer bayonet was fitted with a hilt so that it could be used as a sword when detached from the rifle. Saw bayonets retained the hilt but had a set of serrated teeth on the back edge of the blade.

The idea was that if the infantry were going to use their edged weapons for cutting wood then at least these would be better suited to this task. Some saw bayonets even had the point of the blade widened into an almost leaf like shape so that they would also be better adapted for digging. Many countries issued saw bayonets to their forces although primarily to pioneer units. Germany appears to have been particularly fond of the saw bayonet, some still being issued during World War Two. In general, like many multi purpose tools, the saw bayonet was a compromise and not best suited to any specific function. As a saw it was awkward to hold, entrenching tools were much better for digging and in its primary role the saw edge, although capable of inflicting horrific wounds, could result in the blade catching in the body and being impossible to withdraw.

The 1895 Elco bayonet was a typical British saw bayonet. I include a drawing of one compared with a German saw bayonet

[Gunner Bailey]

Photo as promised. It's worth adding that the Royal Navy used a particularly horrible looking sword bayonet that was a sawback in the late 1870-1880's but that was obviously forgotten about in WW1

John

[sykikcabbage]

Well, thanks for enlightening me, lads. I have to say those bayonets look pretty damn nasty...!

[Guest GAR1918]

I am in possession of a sword bayonet with one serrated edge, and with the mark, WK&C, for Weyenberg Kirschner & Co. My grandfather, who served as a machine gun officer with the AEF, brought it home after the war as a souvenir.

This particular bayonet resembles the Imperial German Prussian Seitengewehr Model 1871 Sword bayonet in every detail, except for the extreme cross-cut saw tooth pattern on one edge of the blade.

I don't yet know any history about this particular variation of the M1871 sword bayonet, however.

[shippingsteel]

It will be the sawback version of the brass-handled M1871, which is a particularly sought after bayonet. The sawbacks were issued to the NCO's.

They were reissued again when the Gew88 rifle was introduced and many were in service in the early stages of the war, although not common.

The maker is Weyersberg, Kirschbaum and Cie of Solingen, who at the time were one of the most reknowned makers of swords and bayonets.

Cheers, S>S

[calibre792x57.y]

Here is a comparison of two from my collection, the British P'07 and the German S 98/05nAS, probably the most common of the saw-backs. Virtually every German bayonet had a saw-back equivalent issued as 6% of the total number, principally to NCO ranks. At one time I owned one brought back from Flers by a N.Z. officer. This was marked to the 5th Bavarian Regt. so, they were still in service in September 1916. Later however they were withdrawn and re-issued to Training Depots. Some were modified by removing the saw back and re-issueing them to the troops. -SW

[Old Tom]

Centurion's post 4 reminds me that at one time the KRRC as a drill movement fixed swords rather than bayonets.

Old Tom

[bob lembke]

My father was a Pionier, and the EM / OR of these units were issued sawback bayonets, for use for cutting wood. I don't think that they were issued to the infantry, but several people above suggest they were issued to Infantry NCOs. I don't know.

In my father's unit (2. Kompagnie, Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) ), the men did not carry rifles, with or without bayonets, into combat, as everyone was either a grenadier or was attached (not with a chain!) to a crew-served weapon, especially the flame-thrower. The rifle with bayonet was considered hopelessly long and clumsy. For close work, many men carried a short spade, with the edges sharpened "razor sharp", as my father called it, but that probably was a bit overblown. On a pre-dawn attack at Verdun my father attempted to save a sleepy French officer, but he shot my father when he attempted to take the officer's personal pistol, and within a second my father's sergeant cut the officer's head in half, right down to the teeth, through his helmet, with a spade. More details but I will spare you.

[healdav]

In "All Quiet on the Western Front", Cat lectures the new arrivals that they must get rid of their saw edged bayonets or cut the saw of or something, because if they don't they won't be taken prisoner. As Remarque was in the army, I assume he knew what he was talking about.