Guest Hollyfos Posted 16 September , 2009 Share Posted 16 September , 2009 Hi I wonder if any one can help me. Im starting to write up a bit of social history about my family and I found this picture of my great grandfather and his brother. They were both in the RFA I assume the same regiment (155th west yorkshire brigade) as only his brother harolds war records have survived. Anyway, I wonder if anyone can help with identifying the badges, chevrons and that little rope thing on Cuthberts (one standing) left shoulder. I dont really know what they mean. Im trying to work out from what they are wearing whether it is a possibility that they were in the same outfit. For instance Cuthbert (the one standing) has shoes on and Harold (the one sitting) is wearing boots. Hol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwp2007 Posted 16 September , 2009 Share Posted 16 September , 2009 Hi, the chevrons are for overseas service, one per calender year, the one for 1914 was red,the others blue, the sitting chap is wearing a wound stripe indicating he has been wounded in action, the rope thing is known as a lanyard quite often worn by members of artillery units,not sure if it was functional or decorative but someone will be along shortly with more knowledge than me i am sure regards, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItemCo16527 Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 Cuthbert is wearing the ribbon for the 1914 or 1914/15 Star above his breast pocket, and what looks like a farrier(?) badge on his right sleeve. Do you have their full names and regimental numbers? We could ascertain their medal entitlement by looking up their Medal Index Cards and possibly their service records if they still exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 It looks more like a Saddlers/Harness makers trade badge on his upper sleeve, the 4 'blue' overseas chevrons and the 1915 Star ribbon would date this photo to 1918 at the earliest and would probably suggest that it was taken 'just' post war, cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 It is often difficult to tell in a B&W image but I don't think the first (nearest cuff) chevron is the red 1914 one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 It's a nice clear photo and you're right Chris, the 1914 chevron would show up much darker so we can assume that the chevrons are for 1915, 16, 17 and 18 cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 My reading of the instructions for the overseas chevrons was that a soldier qualified for his first one either as he 'left home' or 5th Aug 1914 if ashore then, or date left home if subsequent. [allowing for the fact the badges were not introduced until 1918!] and thereafter one on each 'leaving home' anniversary. Am I correct? So a soldier 'left home' 1914 would be awarded: 1914,1915,1916,1917 in about Jan 1918 [date of AO 4], and have to wait until Aug 1918 to get the fifth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 Grumpy, weren't the post-1914 chevrons awarded from each accumulated 12-months of overseas service rather than being for any length of overseas service during a given year? My Grandfather only had the 1914 plus three blue ones - issued as a block rather than individually - and I was given to understand that his recovery from wounds and re-training in England between July 1916 and March 1917 were the reasons he didn't get his fourth. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 I think that the issue was on this basis: e.g. Tommy Atkins To France, 13-8-1914. 1st Chevron earned (red). Still in France, 13-8-1915. 2nd Chevron earned (blue, 1). Still in France, 13-8-1916. Taken two weeks leave of which one month allowed in year, therefore no adjustment to dates. 3rd chevron earned (blue, 2). Wounded, 25-9-1916. Evacuated, 27-9-1916 (46 days earned). Returned to France, 31-3-1917 (clock starts running again). In France, 13-8-1917 (No chevron due to time lost). In France for 319 (365-46) more days to 13-2-1918 (and beyond). 4th Chevron earned (blue, 3). In France, 13-2-1919. 5th Chevron earned (blue, 4) To England for demobilisation, 26-3-1919. Entitlement: 5 chevrons (1 red, 4 blue). Please correct me if I'm wrong! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 I have dug out AO4 1918. 1. date award first chevron: a. date left Home or b. 5 Aug 1914 if overseas on that date or c. If Overseas troops date left their country 2. subsequent chevron[s[:. a. each successive 12 month period, need not be continuous. Can include 1 month leave b. periods absence without leave, in prison or detention, in hospital for avoidable sickness, or as a PoW will be EXCLUDED from reckoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hollyfos Posted 17 September , 2009 Share Posted 17 September , 2009 Cuthbert is wearing the ribbon for the 1914 or 1914/15 Star above his breast pocket, and what looks like a farrier(?) badge on his right sleeve. Do you have their full names and regimental numbers? We could ascertain their medal entitlement by looking up their Medal Index Cards and possibly their service records if they still exist. Its Cuthbert Heron L-5860 I know that he was a saddler and Harold Heron L-19028 who was a fitter (?). Thank you to everyone who has been replying. You are all a great help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 4 January , 2010 Share Posted 4 January , 2010 I have dug out AO4 1918. 1. date award first chevron: a. date left Home or b. 5 Aug 1914 if overseas on that date or c. If Overseas troops date left their country 2. subsequent chevron[s[:. a. each successive 12 month period, need not be continuous. Can include 1 month leave b. periods absence without leave, in prison or detention, in hospital for avoidable sickness, or as a PoW will be EXCLUDED from reckoning. Hello Grumpy, I'm trying to suss out 1.b. of the above ("5 Aug 1914 if overseas on that date"). My man was serving in India when the war began, returned to the UK in Sept 1914 to be promoted from Major to Lt. Col. (temp) to command the 7/SLI and departed for France with his regiment July 1915. Would the fact that he was "overseas" 5 Aug 1914 (serving with 2/SLI in India) qualify him for a red chevron, or did his service commence upon his departure from the UK for France? Thanks and cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14kvn Posted 4 January , 2010 Share Posted 4 January , 2010 b. periods absence without leave, in prison or detention, in hospital for avoidable sickness, or as a PoW will be EXCLUDED from reckoning. Sorry - I'm not sure the above is correct. My Grandfather was given 3 Overseas Service Chevrons . He went to France on 14/2/15 and was wounded on 31/7/17 at St Juliaan and sent back to Hospital in England ( Addenbrooks, Cambridge ) - not sure of date . He was given an Honourable discharge ( Partly Disabled due to war wounds ) in March 1918. Now if his Hospital stay was NOT included,as your quote, he would have only got 2 Chevrons for completed 12 month periods . I assume " in Hospital for avoidable sickness " includes wounded in action. I was previously told that the Chevrons were awarded for each Year in which the Soldier served overseas for any period of time but that now appears incorrect. Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 January , 2010 Share Posted 5 January , 2010 Kevin, I think that your assumption I assume " in Hospital for avoidable sickness " includes wounded in action. is incorrect. I do not believe WIA would have been considered "avoidable", a wound determined to have been self-inflicted might meet that criteria, but in that context I doubt eligibility for chevrons would be at the top of the list of concerns! "Avoidable sickness" does appear an odd choice of words and I wonder if it is used to refer to things such as sexually transmitted diseases or hospitalisation resulting from drunkenness? Perhaps trenchfoot as a result of failure to take mandated precautions? Pure supposition on my part but I am fairly certain the army would not, as a matter of policy and in normal circumstances, consider wounds as a result of enemy action, avoidable and consequently "punishable". Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 5 January , 2010 Share Posted 5 January , 2010 Note Harolds cap chin strap and tailored collar. The chin strap has been platted...a bit of a stylish "dandy" Nice photo full of interesting detail. Love Harolds boots too..............are they military issue pattern or private purchase? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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