john kemp Posted 13 September , 2009 Share Posted 13 September , 2009 I have been to this cemetery today just off the Barking Road, East Ham and cannot believe what I have seen. It was overgrown to a degree that you could not get to some of the stones including CWG and many private stones appear to have been dug up. There are various CWG spread throughout the cemetery, some many distance apart. I was looking for a Middlesex man by the name of Edward Frost F808 but after a couple of hours had to leave without finding him and then a couple of hours later I received a call from one of the friends who look after the interest of the site to advise they had found him but he did not have a CWG stone. I am presuming his family decided against one as he doesnt appear to have fought overseas. Any idea approx what percentage decided not to have a CWG stone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 13 September , 2009 Share Posted 13 September , 2009 John, in 2007 the BBC consumer Watchdog programme featured Tottenham Park Cemetery, which was in a similar state. (Strewn with rubble, rubbish, unstable structures and dangerous pathways.) This cemetery was owned by a private Essex-based company called Badgehurst. At that time Badgehurst also owned Woodgrange Park Cemetery. Quoting John: Many of the private stones appear to have been dug up (end) : One serious concern raised in the programme was that they have a clause in their contract which states that if the graves aren't maintained for one year and one day by family members, ownership of the plots reverts back to the company. This explains why one family found their brother's gravestone, and their grandparents and an uncle's gravestone had been removed and they had been replaced by two new burials. This clause is not illegal because Badgehurst is a private company and is therefore outside the regulations most graveyards have to abide by. I wonder if Badgehurst still own this cemetery...... CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 13 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2009 They do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 13 September , 2009 Share Posted 13 September , 2009 This was produced some years before the 2007 BBC programme: Badgehurst I note they say that Badgehurst Limited specialises in the renovation and management of cemeteries, and that it restored Tottenham Park cemetery in north London and the 21 acre site, Woodgrange Park cemetery, in east London. Definition of restoration and management may be open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Friends Of Woodgrange Park these people may be able to give you more info Also report everything to the CWGC Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Baker Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Good Morning All I have visted this cemetetry on a number of occasions in the past to locate headstones for those who are unlikely ever to be able to visit. On my last visit I spoke to one of the staff/volunteers who actually guided me to the two graves/headstones I needed. Thankfully they were close to the entrance so not that overgrown! As I had time on my hands I then wandered around the whole cemetery, and took pictures of all the CWGC headstones I could see, some of which entailed going through some quite thick bushes! I also found a small plot of CWGC headstones near to the back south east side of the cemetery, grass was cut etc, however if you did not know it was there you would never find it. Of course what also spoilt it was the rubbish and obligatory mattress that had been thrown over the nearby wall! There were also piles of old headstones where they were clearing ground. I also found the screen wall but someone had tried to steal/break the cross of sacrifice, and part of the cross was missing. Unfortunately due to a downloading error on my laptop I lost most of the pictures I took ( not a good day!) so I do intend to go back sometime soon and take them all again. I also know that the company that owns this cemetery sold off part of the land, where they have now built flats. Apparently they are haunted ( I wonder why!). All in all not a great statement for a cemtery really! If you still need the photograph of your man can you PM me with where he is actually buried so I know where to look/ask when I go! Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 14 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Thanks for the info I live about an hour away so hope to get back soon. The friends of Woodgrange were there when I went this weekend and one of them kindly phoned to tell me where my man was. I was looking at various CWG stones of which some I took photos and I was shown the plot in the corner which all appear to be WW2 and behind the memorial is another section which looks onto where the flats have been built. This section has been cleared and a large pile of soil is there and dotted around are further CWG stones all from WW1 if I recall but not my man. The phone call I received advised me that I didnt find the CWG stone I was after because although my man is shown on CWG web site he has a non CWG stone so I was obviously not looking for this. I hope to get back there over the next couple of weeks, thanks again everyone. Still would like to know if it is thought only small numbers opted for non CWG stones if they didnt go overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 14 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Here are examples, not downloaded pictures before so hope this works. I am not sure you can blame the cemetery owners, it does appear that many of the graves (especially non CWG) are not visited anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 14 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2009 [ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 John that works OK with regard to your question re private headstones on war graves - the NOK had the right to either use a commission headstone or use their own headstone - cant find any pattern behind it at all Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 14 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Thanks Chris, Will post photo of grave when I return. If anyone wants a particular photo from this cemetery let me know and I will see what I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 19 September , 2009 Share Posted 19 September , 2009 John Here is part of a reply from CWGC in October 2005 re Woodgrange Park "I agree entirely with your assessment of Woodgrange Park Cemetery. Under our categorisation project of all burial sites in the UK where we have a commitment, this falls into the “unacceptable” category. Over the past 12 to 14 months we have made a determined effort to try and get the company that owns the burial ground, Badgehurst Ltd, and the London Borough of Newham, to draw up a management plan for the cemetery to address the serious maintenance problems that the site has. There has been some movement to this end but not enough to stop pressing these bodies to act. As for the grave of Parsons our records indicate that it is marked by an inscribed white marble kerb set. It is located in the south west corner as far from the main entrance as you can get. If you care to furnish a postal address I can send you a sketch map showing its rough location. If it is you intention to visit I suggest that you go accompanied and report to the general office on arrival so that they know you are on site. As you are aware it is a very overgrown site which can attract a dubious clientele. It is not advisable to spend too much time there on your own so please exercise care if you do go and visit." This shows that not much has changed since then The Parsons grave refered to was a man buried in Woodgrange Park but due to a clerical error was commemorated on the screen wall at Manor Park. I do have about 60 pics of headstones from Woodgrange Park taken in 2005 if you need any to help with your research. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 21 September , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2009 Steve, Thanks for the reply. I am pleased I didnt read this before I went as I took my wife with me who has no interest in the war. I must admit I did get a funny feeling there especially as the friends of the cemetery were there and without them being there, it would have been not a place I would have like to spend much time there. As my man I am after (Edward Frost) has a non cwg stone I doubt whether you have a photo but I appreciate you looking. I have a good idea now where he is and I am pleased its out in the open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 25 November , 2009 Share Posted 25 November , 2009 Further information re the sad state of Tottenham Park Cemetery - I see from the CWGC web site that Edmonton Cemetery has a screen wall bearing the names of 39 casualties buried in Tottenham Park Cemetery because their graves can no longer be maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 9 December , 2009 Share Posted 9 December , 2009 Steve, I am pleased I didnt read this before I went as I took my wife with me who has no interest in the war. I must admit I did get a funny feeling there especially as the friends of the cemetery were there and without them being there, it would have been not a place I would have like to spend much time there. My husband and I went there yesterday - the CWGC had given me a verbal description of the headstone and its location in relation to a Commission headstone and it wasn't actually very hard to locate - not many headstones left standing actually. There was a very helpful man at the gate who pointed us in the right direction and said it was very muddy (understatment). There was rubbish strewn along pathways and right alongside the headstone we were visiting was a huge hole. I have been to many cemeteries (hundreds) and have never been so ill at ease as I was here. I had not read these posts until tonight otherwise I possibly could have decided against going. I felt disturbed when I got home and didn't sleep well. It is definitely not a place to go alone. This is a photo from yesterday. Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 25 May , 2010 Share Posted 25 May , 2010 John I don't know if you still need this but I do have the Frost picture if you need it If you PM me with an email address I 'll be happy to send it to you Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(nzef) Posted 11 June , 2011 Share Posted 11 June , 2011 Hi, Well, nothing much has changed in the last few years! Popped in today to try and find an NZEF man, but after an hour of Indiana Jones style searching, gave up :-( - I had the square reference and even found casualties who were buried in the same square but still couldn't find him. Frustrated :-( When I walked back to the car a chap was leaning on it, saw me coming and bolted! - I have to say that of the hundreds of cemeteries I have visited, this is the only one I actually felt unsafe in...and their have been some real dodgy ones! It appears a digger has been throuh recently, there are piles of headstones pushed aside. If ever there was a case for cremation, this has to be it. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 NZEF Was it Arthur James Gittings you were looking for ? If so I have some pics of the family headstone. I have just noticed that if you look at the pic Judy posted a couple of posts back (#15) the Gittings headstone is the white private memorial right in the middle.............I would suggest that if it was still there, you would have seen it. It was still there in July 2010 Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 Well, nothing much has changed in the last few years! Hi Grant It's very disheartening to hear that nothing much has changed. I haven't been back there for a while - I do hope the Arthur Gittings headstone is still there (if that is the one you were searching for). I, too, have photographs of his headstone. Like you I found it probably the scariest cemetery I've been in. cheers Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 I went there last year to look for the missing 11 that CWGC had given up on over the last few years or so. The only good thing is that CWGC had been there a few days before to place some temporary markers for two of the missing, but as those of you who have visited Woodgrange Park will appreciate, erecting new memorials (even if there is an obligation to do so) in a place where they are just as likely to be bulldozed down seems a waste of time and effort in my opinion. I have had conversations with the cemetery at West Ham and they would welcome some sort of memorial to all those buried at Woodgrange Park who have graves that can longer be found. This isn't fantasy about Woodgrange Park...........if you go there park somewhere else other than inside the cemetery. Oddly enough where some of the missing war graves were located at one time, is a fenced off Muslim area that you can't get access to. Because this area is considered holy ground it is tended by the local Muslim community, who do an excellent job, it is in stark contrast to the rest of this very very sad place Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(nzef) Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 Hi Steve, Judy. Well, I must have been utterly blind. I stood right next to that headstone but was so busy trying to remove my shoe from the mud that I missed it. Don't I feel silly A memorial wall is an excellent idea. I would deffinitely sign a petition or donate some £ to see that happen! Thanks for the offer of photos but I'll be back in London in a month or so and will revisit. Cheers Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 Grant Glad to know it is still there. I would like to know Badgehurst's position on this situation I did contact them some time ago and they offered to see me but when it came to it they decided it was not in their interests to do so. To be fair to CWGC they had been in touch with the council but nothing really came of it. What I want to know if they are going to erect some kind of alternative commemoration (A/C)for the ones that have been lost over the years. At least one is under the corner of the flats at the rear Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 I feel sure that eventually CWGC will do that. One of the men that I researched was originally in a private grave, following a clearance of the churchyard, he is now commemorated by a special memorial, "known to be buried". If the cemetery owners refuse to co-operate, the CWGC would surely make other arrangements for commemoration. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boreenatra Posted 12 June , 2011 Share Posted 12 June , 2011 Keith I am sure you are right, however as so many commemorations have been lost and for so long it may be decades before this may happen. Terry Denham may well know better than I but owners of privatised cemeteries probably have no obligation to allow memorials if they don't want them but from what the groundspeople told me they seem to have a good relationship with CWGC although I do know that this situation has not always existed. My own view is that if there is no visible commemoration, and has not been for some time i.e. over 15 or 20 years then something should be done rather than a promise to do something in the future. OK to find money for Fromelles etc etc but not it seems for Woodgrange Park nor it's dead. Perhaps not the best analogy but it seems there are strange forces at work here Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 June , 2011 Share Posted 29 June , 2011 Thanks Chris, Will post photo of grave when I return. If anyone wants a particular photo from this cemetery let me know and I will see what I can do. Thanks Chris, Will post photo of grave when I return. If anyone wants a particular photo from this cemetery let me know and I will see what I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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