WW1 U.S. Shotgunners?

[HMS Resolute]

Does anyone know the following about U.S. Shotgunners (M1897 specifically) in World War 1?

1. What type of belt did they wear, cartridge or pistol belts?

2. what rank were they typically?

Thank you!

[centurion]

Welcome aboard

The search facility can be very useful on this forum as there are many threads on the subject of the use of shotguns. This one for starters.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1074447

[David B]

Glad to have you Sgt.

Centurion your link doesnt work for me lotsa red ink saying link broken etc

David

[centurion]

Glad to have you Sgt.

Centurion your link doesnt work for me lotsa red ink saying link broken etc

David

Looks like something's broken on the forum - I just copied the link and pasted it!

Try this

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...112832&st=0

No that doesn't work - the thread's there but the link don't work

Mods mods !

[4thGordons]

Suspect this may have something to do with the rearrangement of threads and the indexing thereof.

Chris

[Old War Skule]

Take a look at Bruce Canfield's book, "U. S. Combat Shotguns." He doesn't get into what rank the soldiers issued these were, but covers everything else.

[Tom W.]

Bruce Canfield's U.S. Infantry Weapons of the First World War (Lincoln, Rhode Island: Andrew Mowbray Publishers, 2000) has a photo of a shotgun-armed soldier wearing the cartridge belt. It's on page 132.

The section on shoguns indicates that the gun was issued to enlisted men as well as NCOs, usually 12 guns per regiment.

[Guest]

Hello

Some add'l specific requests...

+ what about the 12 cal. cartridges:

++ where they all in brass cases ?

+ what about the web cartridge carrying cases ?

++ VERY VERY expensive when you can find one...

and all you find is WW2 (or VietNam)

[Tom W.]

+ what about the 12 cal. cartridges:

++ where they all in brass cases ?

+ what about the web cartridge carrying cases ?

The brass shells didn't arrive in France before the war ended, so all American trench guns used paper shells. The troops complained about the paper shells disintegrating or distorting due to mud, moisture, and the constant loading and unloading before and after engagements.

The M1918 webbing cartridge carrying cases were made of canvas and held 32 shells. These are very rare and expensive.

By the way, American troops used shotguns to blow German hand grenades out of the air. The pellets destroyed the grenade before it could explode. The men assigned the shotguns were specially trained to do this.

[rumjar]

Does anyone know the following about U.S. Shotgunners (M1897 specifically) in World War 1?

1. What type of belt did they wear, cartridge or pistol belts?

2. what rank were they typically?

Thank you!

hi sgt,

if you e-mail me on jpc1916@googlemail.com will send you a pic of the shot gun pouch.

joe.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I'm sorry but there are some areas here that need referencing - 'they used shotguns to blast grenades out of the air' is one of them, what shot did they use? The only grenades they would penetrate would be stick or disc. I need more info before being convinced on that one.

Mick

[TonyE]

As far as I know all combat loads for the 12g US shotguns were 00 Buckshot, which is 9 shot of about .33 inch diameter (I think we had this discussion in the above mentioned thread).

That does not give much of a chance of hitting a grenade in the air, but I guess that if a pellet of that size did hit it might deflect the grenade, but I doubt that it would detonate it.

Regards

TonyE

Edit; based on British loadings for 00 buckshot (SG in our language) pellet weight is 54.7 grains and muzzle velocity 1070 fps giving a muzzle energy of about 140 ft. lbs. for each pellet.

[auchonvillerssomme]

But deflect it where? onto some other poor soul not equiped with a shotgun or could this be an early form of keepy uppy.

Mick

[Gunner Bailey]

By the way, American troops used shotguns to blow German hand grenades out of the air. The pellets destroyed the grenade before it could explode. The men assigned the shotguns were specially trained to do this.

Sounds like an urban myth to me. To get a proper sight of an incoming grenade you would have to have head and shoulders exposed. i.e Sniper bait. Allied to the fact that as Mick says it would only work against thin cased grenades like the stick grenade, which could only be thrown about 35 yards, giving very little sighting time, unless you were posed like a trap shooter. So this does not ring true to me.

The US shotguns used 9 large balls per shot (roughly .320 or .33). These would destroy a stick grenade, but would not touch a Kugal or an egg grenade.

John

[David B]

I would think any marksman trained in trap shooting wouldnt have too much difficulty in knocking a thrown grenade, which

I am sure would be travelling a lot slower than a skeet. Then, on the other hand he would have to be pretty good to hit a small moving

target using 00 buckshot with only 9 balls per load, and at close range they would still be travelling fairly close together.

All the same I would go for the urban myth

[auchonvillerssomme]

A grenade isn't just thrown high and wide in a general direction, a grenade is still aimed and thrown at target. Nothing like trap shooting. And having done both I don't believe a word of it.

Mick

[TonyE]

I tend to be with you there Mick, especially as to get a decent aim the shooter would have to be standing relatively still and in a position to swing to follow the target. Definitely sniper bait!

With regard to my "deflect" comment, if the grenade was hit the energy of the pellet would I think at least cause it to drop short of its original target. However, i suspect that is all a bit acedemic anyway.

Cheers

Tony

[IPT]

Better to hit them back with a tennis racket.

From the description below of the way that the weapon was employed, it doesn't sound as if the soldiers were of any specific rank.

"The Model 1897 created quite a stir when American troops showed up on the front lines of World War I. It became known as a "trench broom" because U.S. soldiers quickly adapted it to trench warfare. U.S Dough Boys developed a technique for clearing a section of battlefield by having several soldiers roll into the trench with their Model 1897's at the ready.

It was a coordinated effort, said to be conceived by General John J. "Blackjack" Pershing. It required soldiers to hit the ground and face both directions in the trench. The first man would quickly empty his shotgun; six rapid fire rounds of buckshot, then fall to the ground. The second shot gunner would repeat the process, followed by a third, fourth, etc. A distinct feature of the Model 1897 was that it had no trigger disconnector so holding down the trigger and simply pumping the action could empty the magazine."

[Old War Skule]

According to Bruce Canfield's "A Collector's Guide to United States Combat Shotguns," pages 40 - 41, he references an article in the November, 1935 issue of the "American Rifleman" where the author, Paul Jenkins, used a Winchester 1897 "trench gun" to deflect and in some cases, break cast iron dummy Mills bombs on a skeet range. He performed the test with the M1917 Bayonet attached and fired 00 buck shot. It is reported, but not confirmed, that this was practiced in training camps in the US. I could find no evidence of it ever being done in combat.

They're loads of fun at the range, though I've never tried shooting any flying object with one.

You're correct, Tony. The standard US shotgon round was and still is 00 buck shot. From my experience in Desert Storm, the only weapon I saw as more effective was a grenade in close quarters combat.

[dman]

Better to hit them back with a tennis racket.

From the description below of the way that the weapon was employed, it doesn't sound as if the soldiers were of any specific rank.

"The Model 1897 created quite a stir when American troops showed up on the front lines of World War I. It became known as a "trench broom" because U.S. soldiers quickly adapted it to trench warfare. U.S Dough Boys developed a technique for clearing a section of battlefield by having several soldiers roll into the trench with their Model 1897's at the ready.

It was a coordinated effort, said to be conceived by General John J. "Blackjack" Pershing. It required soldiers to hit the ground and face both directions in the trench. The first man would quickly empty his shotgun; six rapid fire rounds of buckshot, then fall to the ground. The second shot gunner would repeat the process, followed by a third, fourth, etc. A distinct feature of the Model 1897 was that it had no trigger disconnector so holding down the trigger and simply pumping the action could empty the magazine."

Pershing had witnessed the Model 1897 up close when he commanded troops in the Phillipines against

Moro (Muslim) insurgents. He used them in the siege of Bud Dajo Crater where large Moro force was trapped in ancient volcano crater. Pershing saw the "stopping power" of the shotgun against charging

Moro fanatics was determined to use them in the trenches.

He requested shotguns be issued to his men - the Ordanance Deprtment used the proven 1897 to design

a combat shotgun

[shane]

good read wow the trench broom what I killing tool