whkay Posted 25 August , 2009 Share Posted 25 August , 2009 Depending on what you read and from where there seems to be conflicting views as to whether or not the trench remains in front of the Pals memorial at Serre was the jumping off point for the Accrington Pals. Is it possible with modern technology to confirm whether or not this hollow was indeed the front line trench on 1 July 1916? Thank you Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 26 August , 2009 Share Posted 26 August , 2009 Mark, this is the jumping off plan for 1st July from the Pals diary Trench maps and aerial photos show the frontline in front of the Mark and Copse Trench running behind. IMHO, yes it's the frontline cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardess Posted 26 August , 2009 Share Posted 26 August , 2009 Jon PM sent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 26 August , 2009 Share Posted 26 August , 2009 Is it possible with modern technology to confirm whether or not this hollow was indeed the front line trench on 1 July 1916? yes , it is possible... and , no, it's not the front-line trench (which was in the vicinity of the present day track). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 26 August , 2009 Share Posted 26 August , 2009 yes , it is possible... and , no, it's not the front-line trench (which was in the vicinity of the present day track). Dave. Ahh! that explains why I thought my PDA was out Dave....the location I was given for the front line on that was exactly as you've just explained, the hollow assumed to be the front line trench was yards behind me. Many thanks for clearing that up. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whkay Posted 26 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2009 Thank you Gentlemen, very good of you.. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 26 August , 2009 Share Posted 26 August , 2009 I stand corrected. Which is the trench that is evident then? Copse Trench? cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 22 January , 2010 Share Posted 22 January , 2010 I stand corrected. Which is the trench that is evident then? Copse Trench? cheers, Jon My apologies for the belated reply but, having just become the proud owner of several May/June 1915 French trenchmaps of the area I notice that the 'trench' is also shown on these... it would appear to simply be a pre-war ditch. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whkay Posted 22 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2010 Hi Dave, interesting that what I believed for years was the front line trench now appears to be just a ditch in the area of the front line. Can I ask and because the French maps are from 1915, could a trench have been constructed from this ditch after the British arrived? Would it be possible for somebody with Linesman to clarify such a question? Thank you Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 22 January , 2010 Share Posted 22 January , 2010 Hi Dave, interesting that what I believed for years was the front line trench now appears to be just a ditch in the area of the front line. Can I ask and because the French maps are from 1915, could a trench have been constructed from this ditch after the British arrived? Would it be possible for somebody with Linesman to clarify such a question? Thank you Mark Mark, due to their proximity with the actual British front-line trench of 1916 (which, incidentally, would appear to have been a half-constructed German work before becoming the French front-line in June 1915) it'd be pretty much a pointless exercise to convert it into a trench (though it's possible that this ditch actually was the frontline trench a little further to the north...an area I didn't check) Dave... (PS. this was actually a question I asked myself a few years back when I first recieved Linesman...and so this was one of the first places I decided to check upon when I got it (I'd always been suspicious about the so-called front-line trench in the memorial park...something never quite seemed right to me even when I first visitied it when I was a kid) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whkay Posted 23 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2010 Oh well you live and learn as they say.. Thanks for that Dave. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retlaw Posted 7 February , 2010 Share Posted 7 February , 2010 Mark, this is the jumping off plan for 1st July from the Pals diary Trench maps and aerial photos show the frontline in front of the Mark and Copse Trench running behind. IMHO, yes it's the frontline cheers, Jon What I woud like to know is where did you get that plan of the Pals trenches. Back in 1980 when William Turner was researching the Accrington Pals there was no such map in the war diaries. Bill and I made several trips down to Kew over the following years and obtained a copy of the Pals war diary, we pointed out to the curator that several pages were missing in the late 1915 to April 1916, we were told that they had been stolen some years before. Captain Heys made no mention of any trench plan in his history of the 11th E.L. Retlaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 8 February , 2010 Share Posted 8 February , 2010 Just to confirm what Dave has said about the front line trench being in front of Sheffield Memorial Park. Using "Linesman" I've traced the trench line onto an aerial photograph, and this clearly shows the trench being a number of yards outside the boundary fence, especially at the southern end..... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whkay Posted 8 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2010 Good of you Tom, cheers Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 8 February , 2010 Share Posted 8 February , 2010 Maps corrected to 17/02/17 Show the current line within the memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 8 February , 2010 Share Posted 8 February , 2010 Maps corrected to 19/08/16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 Maps corrected to 17/02/17 Show the current line within the memorial If you take a look at the maps posted, none of them show the front line trench anywhere near being inside the part of the wood or boundary that is now Sheffield Memorial Park. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 Does anyone know who dug the front-line trench that was the British front line on 1st July. Did the British take over the already-dug trench or did they push forward? Early 1915 maps show this line to be between 400 and 800 metres behind German lines and there is no trench recorded there. What is marked is a talus or embankment which follows exactly the 1st July line even as far as the Z bend at John Copse Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 If you take a look at the maps posted, none of them show the front line trench anywhere near being inside the part of the wood or boundary that is now Sheffield Memorial Park. regards Tom Yes they do - post 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 Maybe we are relying on the mapmapers skills a bit to much (as good as they were) These are the British and German frontlines from a few different maps. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 I thought that Sheffield Memorial Park was just the small enclosure at the South West of todays wood, everything else was private shooting land.... maybe I'm wrong, if so I stand to be corrected.....my apologies .... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 What I woud like to know is where did you get that plan of the Pals trenches. Back in 1980 when William Turner was researching the Accrington Pals there was no such map in the war diaries. Bill and I made several trips down to Kew over the following years and obtained a copy of the Pals war diary, we pointed out to the curator that several pages were missing in the late 1915 to April 1916, we were told that they had been stolen some years before. Captain Heys made no mention of any trench plan in his history of the 11th E.L. Retlaw. It's still a mystery where that map of the trenches at Serre in post No2 came from then???? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whkay Posted 9 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 February , 2010 A very good point Mick and thanks for the overlays. I think its safe to say that the hollow in front of the Accrington memorial was definately not the front line however what these lines now indicate is that Serre Road number 3 is probably over the front line, a cemetery I always believed being sited in no mans land? The German lines are also a lot closer than I first imagined.. I realise we are only guessing but with the advent of Linesman it certainly brings up a different viewpoint to what I believed previously. Many thanks gents.. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 None of the maps show the current trench, so my point is that until one of us stands in the trench with the GPS and mark it on the IGN we won't know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 9 February , 2010 Share Posted 9 February , 2010 None of the maps show the current trench, so my point is that until one of us stands in the trench with the GPS and mark it on the IGN we won't know for sure. Been there and done it (though I haven't marked it on a map that I can post)...that's why I was so confident in my claim that it's not the front line trench (though, as I said, I never really believed it was anyway!) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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