53rd Div at 2nd Gaza and Turkish Defenses

[ozgur]

Here is the relevant map showing Turkish defenses on the 17th and 18th April 1917:

[Guest stevenbec]

Thanks Mate,

By this map it appears that the 165th Turkish Regt faced the attack by the 163rd and Camel Brigades.

Now from your Orbat of the 53rd Turkish Div its regts were;

161 Regt, 163 Regt and 74 Regt.

So what unit (Div) was the 165rd Regt from?

Also it appears the 53rd Turkish Div was reinforced by the 125th Regt do you know what Div it was from?

Do you also know where the 74 Regt and the two Bn's of the 79th Regt were on this map. I do see the 3rd Bn/79th Regt in the 16th Turkish Div area as it was part of the Div.

Do you have the strenght of the 53rd Div at this battle and or the 165th Regt.

S.B

[ozgur]

it looks like 53rd Division had 163rd , 165th and 125th Regiments. the 125th marched from Berti Cered as reserve unit.

Yes, 79th regt was from 16th Div. ıt reinforced the left flank of the 53rd Div.

Sorry I dont have the book here so I cannot help on the strength of the 53rd Division.

Ozgur

[Nick]

Ozgur,

Excellent picture. Please excuse my ignorance. Are you able to translate some of the terms please: Aksami? Sabahi? Kadar? Nisam meaning regular?

Apologies if they are wrong, my eyes struggle with the fine print!

Nick

[Guest Pete Wood]

Was the 165th Turkish Regiment considered to be an excellent fighting unit?

Also, were the soldiers recruited from a certain area?

[ozgur]

Here is the map glossary:

Nisan= April

gün doğmadan burada, sonra Mecdele= before the dawn here, then to Mecdel

Kisling Emrinde= under command of Kisling

Sabah= Morning

Akşam= Evening

Zayıf Atlı Kıtalar= weak cavalry units

Tümen= Division

A. (alay)= regiment

istasyonu bölgesinde= in the train station sector

as far as I know 53rd Division was an anatolian Turk unit. Those troops were generally good quality units. 51st Division who fought at Kut was also a good quality anatolian Turk division.

[Nick]

Hey, If nothing else on this forum I am learning another language!

Thanks. And there's me saying Nisam = regular, Doh! How big do I feel!

[Guest stevenbec]

Thanks Ozgur,

The map is great. Its the first time I've seen the other side of the Battlefield in detail.

Did you have any luck in finding the strenght of the 53rd Div?

Or at lest the Turkish Army during this battle. British/Australian histories shown the Turkish Army to have around 46,000 men and 101 guns in Palestine, of which only some 20,000 men were at Gaza. Does your reference say different?

Also what were the total Casualties of the Turkish army after the battle as I can find no mention of turkish losses.

Do you have any thing that shows what Batteries and their positions were with the Turkish army during the battle. What was the number of the 53rd Div's Artillary Regt?

Sorry there are so many questions.

S.B

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I want to bring this back since I now have problems with a number of things from the Turkish map of this battle.

The first is at what time did the 125th Turkish Regt get released from reserve around Beyti Cered.

The second is at what time did this Regt arrive in the battle area (to the rear of the 53rd Turkish Div and did it in fact fight during the 19th April.

The third is where were the Bn's of the 79th Turkish Regt? We are informed that two Bn's of the 79th Regt were attached to the 53rd Turkish Div and could have occuoied the Atawuneh area but by the map from the Turkish history this appears that the two Bn's of the 79th Regt were at Beersheba while it's third Bn was behind the Tell el Seria area.

Can anyone confirm these questions particularly if you have a copy of the Turkish offical history of the fighting.

Cheers

S.B