PEAKED CAPS IN SCOTTISH REGIMENTS

[BOER WAR MAUSER]

Does anyone know if some Scottish Regiments apart from the Scots Guards and corps ,wore the standard issue peaked cap instead of the glengarry or tam o shanter, also did many Englishmen end up in Scots Regiments as the war progressed ,thank you GHR

[truthergw]

Many Scots regiments wore peaked caps as well as Scottish artillery units etc.

Once conscription was introduced, men were sent to whichever regiment was next in line. Lots of Cockneys in Kilts and Jocks in the Diehards. There was, I believe, a tendency to direct Irish recruits to Irish units but I have no hard numbers. Highland regiments had always recruited outside the highlands so this was not new but conscription increased the tendency. A couple of highland battalions, 1st Black Watch for instance, were elite units of long standing and one would find keen competition for commissions in them. That was true long before the Great War.

[Joe Sweeney]

BWM,

Here is a photo you may be interested.

The context is this is a man convelescing. So I suspect no Glen or Tam available so SD cap is better than nothing.

Joe Sweeney

[4thGordons]

Likewise - here is a Gordon in Hospital Blues but with a cap.

Other than that...didn't the Highland Artillery and Highland Ambulance units wear SD caps? (and standard RA / RAMC unifroms)

I believe I have an Identified picture of a member of the Argyll Mountain Battery (4th Highland Mnt Brigade) RGA in a service cap - but perhaps you wouldn't count that as a "Scottish Unit"?

Chris

[wainfleet]

Some related discussion in this thread:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=122675&hl=

[BOER WAR MAUSER]

BWM,

Here is a photo you may be interested.

The context is this is a man convelescing. So I suspect no Glen or Tam available so SD cap is better than nothing.

Joe Sweeney

Thanks JOE very interesting picture Graham R

[BOER WAR MAUSER]

Likewise - here is a Gordon in Hospital Blues but with a cap.

Other than that...didn't the Highland Artillery and Highland Ambulance units wear SD caps? (and standard RA / RAMC unifroms)

I believe I have an Identified picture of a member of the Argyll Mountain Battery (4th Highland Mnt Brigade) RGA in a service cap - but perhaps you wouldn't count that as a "Scottish Unit"?

Chris

Thanks Chris ,having had to wear the glengarry and Tammy in the TA, HLI 52 LOWLAND I hated wearing them the WW1 service cap looked smarter and to my mind more practical ,also in hot weather a haverlock could be attached and the peak gave a little bit of shade as well ,I would count any unit raised in Scotland as a Scottish unit ,another good hat was the ANZAC slouch hat very practical and smart I have an Akubra one I use for Boer war reenactment .cheers Graham R

[dycer]

BRM,

If you check out the 8th Royal Scots section of John Duncan's Web-site-Newbattle at War- you'll see photos of members of the Battalion wearing Slouch Hats in July 1911.

The Battalion,however,preferred to go off and fight,in November 1914,wearing the Glengarry as further photos on the Site testify.

George

[4thGordons]

Post Boer War some TF units apparently retained the Bush hat.

Here is a group of Gordons in a picture I believe was taken between the Boer and Great Wars

Chris

[BOER WAR MAUSER]

Post Boer War some TF units apparently retained the Bush hat.

Here is a group of Gordons in a picture I believe was taken between the Boer and Great Wars

Chris

Thanks again very good photo I think the Highland Regiments back then should have kept there kilts for ceremonial use only as they do today, trousers and puttees would have been more practical .thanks Graham R

[RobL]

I've read at least one reference which says that kilted Regiments later changed to trousers when Mustard gas came into use, to offer more protection

[Old War Skule]

I've read at least one reference which says that kilted Regiments later changed to trousers when Mustard gas came into use, to offer more protection

They did when in the line, but often went back to kilts. Others wore under garments for protection. I can't recall how far up the orders came down from.

[Joe Sweeney]

Please do post a reference--I've never come across anything that removed Kilts from service due to mustard gas during the Great War.

They were withdrawn for cold weather and cleaning but I've never come across anything referencing withdrawal due to mustard gas.

Joe Sweeney

[4thGordons]

Please do post a reference--I've never come across anything that removed Kilts from service due to mustard gas during the Great War.

They were withdrawn for cold weather and cleaning but I've never come across anything referencing withdrawal due to mustard gas.

Joe Sweeney

Beat me to it Joe!

We have been round and round on this, I to would love to see primary documentation of this claim. In principle the idea makes sense to me, but having conducted tours around a model trench in midwinter wearing a kilt I KNOW the weather reason makes sense (it is also documented in the 1/4th GH war diary and a number of other places)

Chris

DECEMBER

VILLERS HUTS 1/12/1916 Very cold and misty. 5 officers and 200 O/R on fatigues today. Men getting in bad condition. An average of 7 per day for last 8 days sent to Field Ambulance principally owing to bad feet and legs

2/12/1916 Still very cold. 2 officers and 100 O/R on fatigues. 10 Lewis Guns and teams went up to trenches this afternoon in relief of Lewis guns of 5th Gordons.

3/12/1916 Still cold. 65 O/R reinforcements arrived last night. Men going to trenches all issued with trews and drawers. Leather jerkins were issued to Battn. Left Huts at 3pm by platoons changed into ?trews? at POZIERS and thereafter marched to trenches relieving the 5th Gordons there. Relief completed safely by 9pm. The whole Battn. in front line with exception of 1 platoon of D Coy in support on right of Battn. sector. Good deal of shelling during relief Trenches very bad. Knee deep in mud and water in many places.

TRENCHES 4/12/1916 Cold. Impossible to visit trenches during daylight owing to enemy snipers. Quiet during day except for intermittent shelling. Our snipers hit 2 Germans today.

5/12/1916 Frost. Intermittent shelling during day. Trenches improving now many dry standings and posts having been completed.

6/12/1916 Dull and wet today. Our snipers got another two Germans today. Relieved by 4th Seaforths this evening. Casualties during the two days in trenches 1 killed, 2 wounded. Marched back by platoon to dugouts and shelters (old gun pits) behind Courcellette. 1 Killed and 3 wounded during relief. Men very tired ??[boots] ?? removed and dry socks put on before men allowed to go to sleep.

DUGOUTS 7/12/1916 Very misty About 130 on sick parade principally with sore and tender feet. 375 O/R called for by Brigade for various fatigues only able to supply about 300. Good deal of shelling near shelters.

8/12/1916 Dull and wet. 285 O/R on fatigues in afternoon and evening. Still very large sick parade.

9/12/1916 Dull and wet. Relieved by 6th Gordons tonight and marched back to Bruce Huts. Casualties while in support 7 wounded.

BRUCE HUTS 10/12/1916 Cold. Men changed into kilts and Battn. marched off by Coy at 12.15pm to SENLIS arrived there about2 pm Billets fairly good Rest of the day spent cleaning

Apparently it was a matter of pride to wear the kilts out of the line - but common sense not to in it in midwinter.

Edited 22 August , 2009 by 4thGordons

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

Here’s a couple of references about mustard gas and its effect on kilted troops, from:

Historical Records of the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders Volume IV, Pages 326-327:

We [7th Cameron Highlanders] were the first division [15th Scottish Division] to experience the effects of mustard gas. When we first learned of its power of burning the skin, it was thought that we would probably suffer badly in the kilt. However, it is satisfactory to know that the kilt once again proved its efficiency as a fighting garment. While we have no statistics, we believe it is true that we did not suffer more than the trousered regiments in this respect, the reason being that it was generally the parts of the body where the skin was tender that got burnt. The skin of the legs, having got hardened by exposure to the weather, was generally able to withstand the effects of gas in the same way as the hands and face. Again, most of the cases of burning were caused by men sitting down on ground which was saturated with liquid gas. The kilt, being thick, the gases could not easily penetrate it, and no doubt its swinging in the air, when the men got up, helped to dispel them. In fact, the men did not suffer much from the effects of burning unless the shell burst close enough to sprinkle them with liquid.

Pages 170-171 of Gas & Flame by Auld:

Mustard gas principally affects the eyes and the lungs, but in a very strong vapour or in contact with any of the actual liquid from the shell a man's skin may be burned very severely even through his clothes. More attention has been turned to this blistering effect of the gas than to anything else, but as a matter of fact the blistering is of secondary importance and in itself does not result in the loss of many men to the line. Of course one has to be very careful. It is foolish, for example, to lean up against sandbags that have been spattered with the liquid or to sit in a mustard-gas shell crater. Sooner or later the skin underneath will develop a severe and possibly extensive blister, which is very painful and certain to last some time.

These burns are not dangerous, but they are most uncomfortable, to say the least, especially as they are most easily produced on the more tender parts of the skin.

Great excitement was caused at first among the Highland regiments because the story was spread about that the Scots were particularly susceptible to the mustard gas because of their attentuated clothing. As a matter of fact the kilt doesn't seem to be a source of danger at all, and Highlanders are burned no more frequently than others. Possibly the continued exposure of their legs hardens them.

Hope they are of use.

Aye

Tom McC

[loganshort]

My Grandfather was issued kilt uniform when transfered to Seaforth Highlanders. He had to wear the kilt in the front Line in the Winter of 1917/18. Although proud of the Scottish traditional dress, he said it was stupid making them wear kilts in the trenches. Apart from the freezing cold weather he had to endure, he also had to spend time picking the lice from the many pleats a kilt has at the rear! A lit match, if you could afford to spare one, made them fizz or you popped them with your finger nails. Ugh!