Relatives Meeting

[cs_cooper]

I have just returned from a very helpful and informative meeting at the Warwickshire Regiment Museum, and am aware of the latest article in the Australian press. I suspect that most attending with me would share the view that the article is......shall we call it 'journalism.'

I am now confident that the entire recovery team is acting with due professionalism, care and a great deal of enthusiasm for the task.

The best news that I am sure you will share is that the book does not close when the new Cemetery is consecrated next July, but that it continues for a total of 5 years. This means that those buried without a named grave will, if proof can be provided in the future, will recive one.

We received an update as to the current position at Fromelles and the type of work being undertaken to recover every possible potential artifact from the graves (the use of pit is not liked by the team). The sample DNA testing is completed, and as expected some is very good, some is very poor, but most is classed as useful. A total of 38 remains have been used from different graves, and the various plots within them for this work. The male and female DNA lines were discussed during and at question time after the meeting.

We received full details of the condition of the graves, and have been told that the closest are only one metre from the wood. The remains in these that are closest to the wood are not in very good condition as a result of the tree roots. In general however the remains and artifacts that have been recovered are in good condition considering that they have been in the ground for so long. It appears that a fairly large amount of clothing (uniform and woollen socks) has been recovered, but only two pairs of boots...German shortage!!!! and very few dog-tags. All remains recovered receives an initial x-ray whilst still covered in mud, and it appears that some show 'ghost images' of articles that have rotted or rusted. It is hoped that these might prove useful in identification.

A total of about 130 British families have been in contact to register an interest, and although these are spread throughout the UK and abroad, there are clusters as might be expected in Gloucestershire, Warwickshire and the West Midlands, and Oxfordshire.

I am happy with the progress to date which seems to be as careful as I would wish it to be, and on schedule.

Chalkie.

[MelPack]

Chalkie

Thanks for the report on the meeting

I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions:

1) Was any indication given as to whether certain of the 38 sets of remains did not yield any 'viable' DNA? I am a little confused by descriptors of very good, very poor and useful.

2) Was there any indication given of the split between the Australians and the British recovered thus far?

3) Was clear guidance provided to the relatives on the appropriate descendants to search for in respect of MtDNA testing?

Mel

[dendonedid]

I have just returned from a very helpful and informative meeting at the Warwickshire Regiment Museum, and am aware of the latest article in the Australian press. I suspect that most attending with me would share the view that the article is......shall we call it 'journalism.'

I am now confident that the entire recovery team is acting with due professionalism, care and a great deal of enthusiasm for the task.

The best news that I am sure you will share is that the book does not close when the new Cemetery is consecrated next July, but that it continues for a total of 5 years. This means that those buried without a named grave will, if proof can be provided in the future, will recive one.

We received an update as to the current position at Fromelles and the type of work being undertaken to recover every possible potential artifact from the graves (the use of pit is not liked by the team). The sample DNA testing is completed, and as expected some is very good, some is very poor, but most is classed as useful. A total of 38 remains have been used from different graves, and the various plots within them for this work. The male and female DNA lines were discussed during and at question time after the meeting.

We received full details of the condition of the graves, and have been told that the closest are only one metre from the wood. The remains in these that are closest to the wood are not in very good condition as a result of the tree roots. In general however the remains and artifacts that have been recovered are in good condition considering that they have been in the ground for so long. It appears that a fairly large amount of clothing (uniform and woollen socks) has been recovered, but only two pairs of boots...German shortage!!!! and very few dog-tags. All remains recovered receives an initial x-ray whilst still covered in mud, and it appears that some show 'ghost images' of articles that have rotted or rusted. It is hoped that these might prove useful in identification.

A total of about 130 British families have been in contact to register an interest, and although these are spread throughout the UK and abroad, there are clusters as might be expected in Gloucestershire, Warwickshire and the West Midlands, and Oxfordshire.

I am happy with the progress to date which seems to be as careful as I would wish it to be, and on schedule.

Chalkie.

Thanks for that Chalkie. That is a bit reassuring. I've never been able to understand the seeming rush about the project...Of course its difficult to gauge what is really going on (as we've seen with all the 'journalism' as you say) but I guess I just wanted to hear that every available care was being taken and that cost nor time were at issue.

[cs_cooper]

I apologise for the confusion regading the 38 sets of DNA testing. I should have qualified this by reporting that a few were very good, a few were very poor, but that the majority were useful, I take this to mean useable.

I asked about the split between British and Australian and got the answer I think we all expected....no comment. In fairness not all of the remains have been recovered yet so any figures would not be accurate.

We did have an explanation about the type of DNA matching being looked for and it was in simple terms straight line male without a break, explained as following the family name, or straight line female, without a break from the Mother. There will however be a flow chart provided on-line at some time in the near future, it appeared the same/similar to that Melpack provided a short time ago.

A further issue that comes to mind after a nights sleep is the wealth of enlistment data on every Australian soldier which will greatly aid the identification process, it was reported that these in most cases even provide a full dental record. Whilst the British records are no where near as comprehensive, and of course the majority burned.

I should also report that a comprehensive questionnaire has been sent out (we have not yet received it) which should greatly assist the indentification process. Height, family features (gap in teeth etc), illness that may have affected bone structure, injuries etc., etc. I will expand on this when I receive it.

Chalkie

[Michelle79]

Hi Chalkie,

Thanks for your report - it's good to hear what's happening at the actual meetings as the Scotland one is yet to be scheduled. From what you've said regarding the DNA testing and the emphasis on male-male and female-female lines it seems they are reasonably confident of extracting Y-Chromosome DNA as well as Mitochondrial DNA - or perhaps they just wish to hedge bets in case they can extract the former from some of the "very good" samples. This is sensible as there is no way of really being 100% sure from a sample set how good the rest will be and there is no point saying it will be MtDNA testing only if even a few may yield Y-Chromosome DNA as that few may happen to pertain to families in which only a Y match could be found. I still think MtDNA will be the preferred testing method in most cases if a match is available though.

We did have an explanation about the type of DNA matching being looked for and it was in simple terms straight line male without a break, explained as following the family name, or straight line female, without a break from the Mother. There will however be a flow chart provided on-line at some time in the near future, it appeared the same/similar to that Melpack provided a short time ago.

I'm glad a flow chart will be provided as a visual aid often makes it easier to understand. When they said it should be straight line female without a break from the mother did they make it clear a male could be on the end of this line?

The questionnaire you refer to is already posted up on the forum HERE if you would like to read it.

Regards

Michelle

[OrlandoBelle]

I attended the Gloucester meeting today - no need to expand on Chalkie's excellent summary.

It was informative & interesting with about 8 families attending (maybe 20-22 people all together). There was also a reporter from BBC Radio Gloucester who is planning a documentary on the subject in attendance. I had a brief chat with him but as neither I nor 'my' soldier is/was from the area I don't think I was of much interest. We were asked to sign a consent form (or not as the case may be) regarding future media contact

I am glad I went pre-armed with the DNA information from this site as I think some present struggled with the Mt DNA explanation

Also good to be given the opportunity to look around the Regimental Museum after the meeting

... ayone tell me how to view these forums in flat rather than this annoying threaded mode please??

[rendellers]

Go to the top of the topic -on blue header on right hand side there is the word options with a drop down menu- click and part way down you have display options-I think you need standard mode

[OrlandoBelle]

Go to the top of the topic -on blue header on right hand side there is the word options with a drop down menu- click and part way down you have display options-I think you need standard mode

Many thanks!

[topsey1234]

Hi Chalkie,

Thanks for your report - it's good to hear what's happening at the actual meetings as the Scotland one is yet to be scheduled. From what you've said regarding the DNA testing and the emphasis on male-male and female-female lines it seems they are reasonably confident of extracting Y-Chromosome DNA as well as Mitochondrial DNA - or perhaps they just wish to hedge bets in case they can extract the former from some of the "very good" samples. This is sensible as there is no way of really being 100% sure from a sample set how good the rest will be and there is no point saying it will be MtDNA testing only if even a few may yield Y-Chromosome DNA as that few may happen to pertain to families in which only a Y match could be found. I still think MtDNA will be the preferred testing method in most cases if a match is available though.

I'm glad a flow chart will be provided as a visual aid often makes it easier to understand. When they said it should be straight line female without a break from the mother did they make it clear a male could be on the end of this line?

The questionnaire you refer to is already posted up on the forum HERE if you would like to read it.

Regards

Michelle

I went to yesterday's pm meeting in Warwick. I was very impressed in particular with the attendance of Peter Jones- the DNA expert and Margaret Cox who is an anthropologist who is helping to the project. I've seen Margaret before on Time Team and Meet the Ancestors. Both gave useful insights. Margaret for instance wrote the brief for the project and is monitoring the Fromelles site on a weekly basis to check all is in order. Peter had a quick look at my family tree after the presentations and pointed out those relatives who are needed for the male Y DNA analysis and the mitochondrial DNA. Actually once he went through the tree I got the hang of it straight away.

Both were very interested in the individual histories and took the time and trouble to read the information I had on Len Twamley I brought with me. I also got the chance to meet Ian and Sue from the SPVA and again was impressed by their professionalism.

The relatives who accompanied me were also pleased. Both knew Lens mother so we had a living link in the room with the past which I think really brought home the fact we were not dealing with some event in the remote past, especially when I read out the heart rendering appeal from Len's mother in the newspaper when he went missing 93 years ago.

All in all it was a positive and helpful meeting in my view and I thanked those making the presentations for doing what they are doing.

Richard

[MelPack]

I am glad to see that the feedback on the meetings is consistently positive.

Mel

[Auimfo]

I asked about the split between British and Australian and got the answer I think we all expected....no comment.

I'm glad to hear that the meetings have apparantly been very informative and useful.

However I'm becoming very tired of all the official 'hush-hush' secrecy as if Pheasant Wood was another Roswell. I mean, surely it causes no harm to give some approximate figures or percentages regarding identified nationality located 'to date'.

I think sometimes those in charge forget that this process isn't about state secrets, politics and money and is actually about the people of each nation paying their respects and applying the best available techiques to honour these men properly. Hence the entire process should be open and transparent and when a person wnants to know something, they should receive an adequate answer where possible. 'No comment' just doesn't cut it.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[topsey1234]

I'm glad to hear that the meetings have apparantly been very informative and useful.

However I'm becoming very tired of all the official 'hush-hush' secrecy as if Pheasant Wood was another Roswell. I mean, surely it causes no harm to give some approximate figures or percentages regarding identified nationality located 'to date'.

I think sometimes those in charge forget that this process isn't about state secrets, politics and money and is actually about the people of each nation paying their respects and applying the best available techiques to honour these men properly. Hence the entire process should be open and transparent and when a person wnants to know something, they should receive an adequate answer where possible. 'No comment' just doesn't cut it.

Cheers,

Tim L.

I do wonder if the reason for the reason for not volunteering numbers is that:

a) The dig is incomplete so its a work in progress

Subject to revision

c) Interpretation is perhaps needed as the results are unclear

d) Better to wait until the end once all the analysis is in

e) You could be subject criticism by issuing numbers and then later having to change it

Richard

[dendonedid]

I do wonder if the reason for the reason for not volunteering numbers is that:

a) The dig is incomplete so its a work in progress

Subject to revision

c) Interpretation is perhaps needed as the results are unclear

d) Better to wait until the end once all the analysis is in

e) You could be subject criticism by issuing numbers and then later having to change it

Richard

Definitely valid analysis Richard but I do think that Tim.L is broadly right in questioning the degree of secrecy that has gone on around the entire project. It could be more transparent from the top down. As someone else within this forum said recently: such an atmosphere of secrecy and suspicion has fostered much of the negative press-mongering. It might be an obvious thing to say but the Fromelles Project is an important and positive endeavour...I wouldve thought that the atmosphere around it would reflect this more.

Den

[cs_cooper]

Just a note to Michelle and other Scottish relatives.

You were mentioned at our Warwick meeting, there will be a Scottish relatives meeting, "somewhere in Perthshire" was mentioned as a venue. Also meeting are to be organised in Liverpool and at the Chelsea Hospital.

Chalkie.

[Michelle79]

I went to yesterday's pm meeting in Warwick. I was very impressed in particular with the attendance of Peter Jones- the DNA expert and Margaret Cox who is an anthropologist who is helping to the project. Peter had a quick look at my family tree after the presentations and pointed out those relatives who are needed for the male Y DNA analysis and the mitochondrial DNA. Actually once he went through the tree I got the hang of it straight away.

The relatives who accompanied me were also pleased. Both knew Lens mother so we had a living link in the room with the past which I think really brought home the fact we were not dealing with some event in the remote past, especially when I read out the heart rendering appeal from Len's mother in the newspaper when he went missing 93 years ago

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply - I'm glad you and your relatives found it so helpful and informative. I'm also very glad you found the DNA explanations sufficient as that has been a concern. Things like Len's mother's appeal do indeed bring the resonance of the project into sharp focus.

Regards

Michelle

[Michelle79]

Just a note to Michelle and other Scottish relatives.

You were mentioned at our Warwick meeting, there will be a Scottish relatives meeting, "somewhere in Perthshire" was mentioned as a venue. Also meeting are to be organised in Liverpool and at the Chelsea Hospital.

Chalkie.

Hi Chalkie,

Thanks for this information - I had expected it would probably be Glasgow or Edinburgh but "somewhere in Perthshire" makes sense as a number of the Scottish boys families are based further up the country so Perth would be more central and, thus, make it easier for more of them to perhaps attend.

Regards

Michelle

[Michelle79]

Hi Everyone,

Just to update; for any family members in Scotland still waiting on news of the Scottish meeting I was informed today that it is now planned for Thurs 22nd Oct in Stirling commencing at 10am. There should be a letter in the post with details shortly.

Regards

Michelle

[topsey1234]

Hi Everyone,

Just to update; for any family members in Scotland still waiting on news of the Scottish meeting I was informed today that it is now planned for Thurs 22nd Oct in Stirling commencing at 10am. There should be a letter in the post with details shortly.

Regards

Michelle

I have just received an email seeking confirmation of addresses for relatives so DNA testing can begin shortly. Apparently advice has now been received on ideal candidates for DNA testing and LGC Forensics will send them sampling packs.

Richard

[Tjap]

Very interesting!

Was there, has there been, any mention of isotope analysis of teeth for evidence of place of upbringing as this technique was used very successfully on material associated with a burial at Stonehenge ca 2200 BC and showed that the man was raised in Switzerland of all places. There are quite marked variations in trace minerals across UK and Aus which should hep disciminate between nationalities even when the DNA evidence is weak or absent.

Best,

Tjapaltjarri

[topsey1234]

Very interesting!

Was there, has there been, any mention of isotope analysis of teeth for evidence of place of upbringing as this technique was used very successfully on material associated with a burial at Stonehenge ca 2200 BC and showed that the man was raised in Switzerland of all places. There are quite marked variations in trace minerals across UK and Aus which should hep disciminate between nationalities even when the DNA evidence is weak or absent.

Best,

Tjapaltjarri

I have asked that question. SPVA passed me on to LGC Forensics who did not answer my email. Its an obvious test and would I think narrow down the possibilities of identity to a number of individuals if DNA matches are not available yet. BBC "Meet the Ancestors" have used it( There are 4 years to find suitable candidates.) Also if the service record still exists with the height and chest details taken on enlistment it could narrow further the possible identity. Other clues will be items found with individuals such as buttons etc.

Richard