Gunner Bailey Posted 7 August , 2009 Share Posted 7 August , 2009 Thought the forum may like to see this. It's a No 18 Trench Periscope made by the RE workshops in Armentiers throughout WW1. Original paintwork and still fixes perfectly on a 1907 bayonet. Anyone else got one? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingo794 Posted 7 August , 2009 Share Posted 7 August , 2009 I haven't got one of these, but now I have seen one on here ..................... I now know what they are. Seen one or two up for grabs at sales over the years, if I see anymore I'll grab 'em. Disappearing treasure. Cheers, Dick W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 7 August , 2009 Share Posted 7 August , 2009 I haven't got one of these, but now I have seen one on here ..................... I now know what they are. Seen one or two up for grabs at sales over the years, if I see anymore I'll grab 'em. Disappearing treasure. I feel I should point out the American version of these are still widely available, even in excellent condition (one notable American dealer had a number of mint ones for sale for less than £50 a few years ago), but the British ones as shown in Johns post are rather rarer and command higher prices as a result. The main difference is in the lid - American ones cover the top and sides of the mirror, British ones merely the top. The paper instruction label most seem to have carried pasted inside the lid is another rarity on surviving British examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 7 August , 2009 Share Posted 7 August , 2009 Here's mine.. the US version... The chap I bought it from last year had a shoe-box full of them.. $40.00 each. I bought three and sold two for twice the price, and the buyers never batted an eye-lid! Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bingo794 Posted 7 August , 2009 Share Posted 7 August , 2009 I feel I should point out the American version of these are still widely available, even in excellent condition (one notable American dealer had a number of mint ones for sale for less than £50 a few years ago), but the British ones as shown in Johns post are rather rarer and command higher prices as a result. The main difference is in the lid - American ones cover the top and sides of the mirror, British ones merely the top. The paper instruction label most seem to have carried pasted inside the lid is another rarity on surviving British examples. Thanks for the info and pics, chaps. At the prices you quote, they are indeed 'treasure'. I will pick up the next ones I see. DW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2009 I feel I should point out the American version of these are still widely available, even in excellent condition (one notable American dealer had a number of mint ones for sale for less than £50 a few years ago), but the British ones as shown in Johns post are rather rarer and command higher prices as a result. The main difference is in the lid - American ones cover the top and sides of the mirror, British ones merely the top. The paper instruction label most seem to have carried pasted inside the lid is another rarity on surviving British examples. Andrew In Anthony Saunders book 'Dominating the Enemy' he states the British version was first issued in the summer of 1915. A Commercial version known as the Vigilant was made in France and was on general sale there. The Vigilant has the label in the lid, not the US version. From the internet I've learnt the US called their version the M1918 persicope and I found one that had been sold on a US online auction for $184. I bought this one in a job lot with some Lee Enfield oilers and a shell case for considerably less. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2009 Here's mine.. the US version... The chap I bought it from last year had a shoe-box full of them.. $40.00 each. I bought three and sold two for twice the price, and the buyers never batted an eye-lid! Seph Thanks for the photos Seph. They are nearly identical. The US version has a simpler welded hinge whereas the British one has a more integral hinge. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 John... there are other distinct difference to. Where the lid of the British item is a straight peace of metal, the US version has a closing lip. Also, the mirror on the British item is vertually level with its frame, but the US mirror is deep set... the frame edges being folded inwards to the mirror, forming a bevelled picture frame effect. Another more obvious difference is in the hinged bayonet attachment. The US = solid rivets, British = hollow rivets. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2009 John... there are other distinct difference to. Where the lid of the British item is a straight peace of metal, the US version has a closing lip. Also, the mirror on the British item is vertually level with its frame, but the US mirror is deep set... the frame edges being folded inwards to the mirror, forming a bevelled picture frame effect. Another more obvious difference is in the hinged bayonet attachment. The US = solid rivets, British = hollow rivets. Seph Yes quite right Seph. The British version is very simple and no doubt the US designers had thought about a few improvements. I think the US version is closer to the Vigilant in design. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 I think the US version is closer to the Vigilant in design. John I'm not so sure on that John. But what I do know is that a Vigilant did sell on Evilbay earlier this year... for just under 300.00 Pounds Sterling! I was going to outbid the winner, but thought better of it in the end. 'Her who must be obayed' would have found an excuse to buy every dress in the shop for two months! Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 a few pictures of pat's example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 Just flicked through my files.. so here are a couple closer up. Looking at the inscription of both Vigilant examples, they are different. Does this mean that several issues were apparent, or is it just artistic licence from several printers? Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 second one kind regards sabine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 Well... I've just learned something that I never realised previously! Thank you for posting your illustration Sabine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2009 Thank Sabine and Seph. I was wrong about the similarity. It's really that the No18 and the Vigilant are the same except for the open end of the clip on the Vigilant. The US version has a better cover but the clip looks to be the same as the No 18 except for the rivets. Really quite interesting! I'm amazed at the prices these things hit as well. There can't be too many around of the No 18. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 John, I would say that the US version is about in greater numbers, with a percentage of 5 to 1 in favour. Typical US over production. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 8 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2009 John, I would say that the US version is about in greater numbers, with a percentage of 5 to 1 in favour. Typical US over production. Seph More likely Seph, that the No 18's got dumped quickly after WW1 and most of the US versions never got to Europe at all and lived in warehouses for many years. It may have been that production of the No 18 by the Sappers ceased in November 1918 but in the US, commercial contracts were probably fulfilled into 1919 or later. Probably not much need for them to be used in WW2 as it was not trench warfare. Interesting to see a small mirror used in 'Saving Private Ryan' for a similar purpose. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 8 August , 2009 Share Posted 8 August , 2009 I'd agree with that John. Saving Private Ryan : differet war.. but same principle! I used a WW1 trench mirror right through my RM career as a shaving mirror when on field exercise, as the lig stopped the reflections. Much better than flat steel mirror. I still have it in storage with my keepsakes. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_C Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Hi, And here’s one in action – this Imperial War Museum photograph shows men of the 4th Battalion, the East Lancashire Regiment, France, September 1917. I digress, but just noticed the metal parts of the SMLE have not been blued, rather they've been left in bright steel and finished with an ‘experimental’ coating to prevent rusting – presumably to save production time and materials. If you look out for these in contemporary photos, they’re quite common, but very few appear to have survived, with this finish intact, into today’s collectors’ market - in fact, does anybody have one ? Cheers Manxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 9 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Manxy This photo was a posed set up for the press, and was taken in a training area. The bayonet may also be normal but when photographed with orthochromatic film colour and shade can alter. So it may just have been a standard bayonet. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_C Posted 9 August , 2009 Share Posted 9 August , 2009 Manxy This photo was a posed set up for the press, and was taken in a training area. The bayonet may also be normal but when photographed with orthochromatic film colour and shade can alter. So it may just have been a standard bayonet. John Hi John I was referring to the SMLE rather than the bayonet – un-blued 1907 bayonets were/are not uncommon – That said it’s not a great example of what I was referring to – here’s a better one – a crop from a much larger photograph, captioned Guillemont 1916 – MkIII*’s on the parapet of a reserve trench with un-blued metal work. There's reference somewhere in Skennerton’s book to this practice, and I have encountered a (very) few examples over the years, including one in the Hill 62 museum, and also a friend who has a deactivated example, converted for bayonet practice (with the big plunger in the barrel) which is probably how it survived in unadulterated condition for so many years. I suppose the caption to the IWM photo doesn’t actually specify "front line" and they do look quite relaxed don't they – interesting, how do you know it’s a posed shot ? Cheers Manxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
findabetterole Posted 10 August , 2009 Share Posted 10 August , 2009 All three rifle slings.. tight as if for parade... smells of posed to me! Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 10 August , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2009 All three rifle slings.. tight as if for parade... smells of posed to me! Seph It could be captioned 'Rifles at rest'.... Manxy, If you want to continue your topic it would be best to start your own thread. My periscope one seems to have run its course. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew lucas Posted 10 August , 2009 Share Posted 10 August , 2009 bought my British verson on e..... some years ago, for a frqaction of what has been quoted on here, my how these things have gone up the last few years. As for posed, why use a periscope when your mates are actually looking over the top anyway? matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony N Posted 12 August , 2009 Share Posted 12 August , 2009 Thought I'd add my one. I didn't know anything about variations or the US issue mirror. Any comments are welcome. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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