Gallipoli Landings

[larneman]

It is well worth getting to the library to do some reading in this complex action

Thanks Michael,

for the map and information. I now have a starting point. As to the library while living in the Netherlands does have its advantages access to World War 1 books is not one of them. Books on this subject are as rare as hens teeth. I will see if http://www.booksulster.com can help with a cheap secondhand copy.

Again thanks

Liam

[Guest bonza]

Perhaps one of our Australian or New Zealand Pals could correct me, but I assume that ANZAC had a large British-born percentage as well.

   The feelings of my fellow Commonwealth Pals about the effect Gallipoli had on the building of their nations is entirely understandable. Certainly many more British soldiers died there than Anzacs, but the mother country was waging a war on many fronts; it is only common sense to see that Gallipoli "means" more to the folks down under.

G'day Terry.

Cannot speak for the "NZ" portion of the outfit, mate; attempting to speak for the "A" team often results in risk of personal injury, but someone's gotta do it.

Did you honestly believe that anyone from this hemisphere would have the audacity to presume that he might CORRECT something emanating from North of the Divide? Let's just recognise that there MIGHT be a different perspective from down here.

Although 'we' might combine to repel attacks from 'outside', ANZ is not an entity.

There are many differences, but one of some significance here is the manner in which we raised the forces which landed at Anzac Cove. Oversimplified, perhaps, NZ sent her Permanent Amy, strengthened by recruiting. Australia raised a separate force. There has been more effort expended in analysing the make up of these forces, than was involved in raising them. The initial Divisions did contain many with "previous military experience". Prior to the losses at Gallipoli, not having that qualification COULD mean rejection.

We are constantly being told that Gallipoli was not our show. Anzac Cove very nearly was. Anzacs were killed at Helles & Suvla, but to"us", Gallipoli equates to Anzac [Cove]. Our allies seem to have trouble with that, our enemies don't, and even presented us with a section of the land. If some of us cannot identify which other Allied units participated in the Dardanelles Campaign, [ I personally learned from this Forun that the Newfoundlanders did] is that so surprising. Despite the supposed brain washing from Mel & his mates in the film"Gallipoli", many don't seem to know that the Light Horse were there.

"We" often have the number of deaths thrown at us, sometimes with the inference that we got off lightly. The impact of those deaths, and other casualties, was certainly traumatic to both our countries. European countries may have had precedents, we'd had some experience, particularly from South Africa, but this was a whole new ball game.

But Gallipoli had another significant effect on the "meaning" of many things.

The Anzac veterans became revered within their own Army, they wore a special A badge, and were often assigned recruits to break in. But the greatest impact was the reduction in their numbers. Recruits joining after April 1915 could be under no illusion that this would be a big adventure. By the time the Anzacs reached Europe

they were of necessity Different, but fiercely clung to the Anzac "tradition". Statistically, Gallipoli involved a small number of the soldiers involved in the War.

The Somme & Wipers had terrible consequences. Anzac Day & Anzac itself recognise those participating in those and any other theatre equally with Gallipoli.

Yes. There were many non-Australian-born members immortalised as Anzacs. Of particular note was Simpson, who may not have even considered himself to be Australian. There were many Brits who just happenned to be in the antipodes and took the opportunity to join "Our Mob". When they did so they became part of our Heritage, and entitled to our thanks. There were also significant numbers of non-british-born or descended volunteers, particularly from German "settlements' in the Barossa Valley & similar areas. They were faced with a very awkward decision

and have always received due recognition. There were many antipodeans who served in units of other countries, but they are accorded equal recognition under the Anzac title.

ooRoo

Pat

Edited 15 October , 2004 by bonza

[Guest bonza]

It's highly probable that he was most compelled to enlist by the prospect of sailing with the AIF to France, jumping ship and heading back to England. He must have been mighty annoyed when the AIF was sent to Egypt.

The Australian who lauds Simpson as one of our greatest cultural icons, whilst simultaneously berating the bungling Poms of Gallipoli would be disappointed to learn the truth.

Matthew

Terribly disappointed.

What right has any one person to presume to know what is the motive for any other persons actions. There has never been any attempt to claim Simpson as anything other than he really was. To me, he is perhaps the Greatest Anzac, earning that position of adulation for what he did, and for no other reason. To suggest that he was a deserter thwarted by circumstance, well, gets right up my nose.

Please don't patronise anyone by inferring that perhaps they don't know the truth.

To some people "truth" has some relevance to "facts". There should be enough of the latter to occupy our minds for some time to come.

From a personal perspective I do consider General Stopford to have bungled, and hung the Anzacs out to dry at Lone Pine, The Nek Sari Bair etc. Its personal because of particular casualties incurred there, as well as for the effect that it may have had on future casualties had Suvla been a success. I stress its personal.

I can only hope Mark Luke & John don't follow your lead

ooRoo

[michaeldr]

It's highly probable that he was most compelled to enlist by the prospect of sailing with the AIF to France, jumping ship and heading back to England.

Mat,

First let me say that, yes Simpson had jumped ship a couple of times; the second time when the ‘Yankalilla’ reached Fremantle in August 1914. His reason that time was in order to join up.

Secondly, yes he did see the army as a useful way to get home to visit his widowed mother and sister.

However, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he intended more than just a visit! There is no reason at all for anyone to suggest that he intended to desert from the army. And I must say that this is the first time that I have ever heard such a suggestion.

See Jack’s letter to his mother, 14th October 1914

“Dear Mother,

Just a line to let you know that we are still in camp……………..

Now mother I cant tell you exactly when we are to leave but I don’t think it will be long now. I think that we are going to Aldershot when we get to England. So I will be able to come and see you pretty often before we go to the front………………………..I remain

Your loving Son

Jack”

Also see his letter to his mother dated 3rd January 1915

“Dear Mother,

Just to let you know that I received your Christmas cards and one from Annie [his sister]…………….

It is not a bad sort of life taking it all together at any rate it is a much easier life than working ones life in the stokehole but everybody is wishing they would make a move out of this place either to England or the front. I would like to have a month in England before we go to the front……………………………………………

…………love to you and Annie.”

[my emphasis - details from Tom Curran’s book “Across the Bar”]

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Mat McLachlan]

Michael - You are right. I typed my response pretty quickly so didn't choose my words as well as I should have. Now that I read over it, I can see it was a bit of a stretch to imply Simpson was intending to desert. I was trying to paraphrase the point that you made much more successfully, that Simpson was keen to get back to Europe so he could visit his family, so he must have been (quite reasonably) disappointed when the AIF was sent to Gallipoli instead. Thanks for bringing my attention to it.

Bonza - In addition to the above, I wasn't referring to you (or in fact anyone personally) when I said 'The Australian...'. I've always thought it is an interesting cultural situation that we as collective Australians see Simpson as one of our greatest Aussies, when he was in fact English. I think it's strange that some people are disappointed to find out Simpson was English, seeing it as somehow disrupting their perceptions of the brave Aussie and the bungling pom.

Simpson was a great man and a worthy symbol of the bravery and selflessness of Gallipoli - regardless of where he was born.

Sorry to all if my previous post caused offence.

Cheers,

Mat

[Guest bonza]

Matthew

To me personally one of the greatest Myths is that even the most typical of the supposed Ugly Ocker would limit his Aussie Hall of Fame to those born here.

It may be tedious, particularly to those who have heard the story, but one of my greatest pleasures was reading the school project my 10yo grandson had submitted to "Who was the Greatest Person in History".

Without any input from his school or his family he selected & researched Simpson. He adequately argued IMHO that Simpson should have been awarded the Victoria Cross. He was fully aware of, and recorded, Simpson's 'movements' but refers to him as nothing other than Australian. He did not presume to understand his motives, other than to stress the desire to save lives. Then again, the lad may be prejudiced, his mother wasn't born here either.

In this instance, I differ with the utterances of CEW Bean. "You can say what you like about them, but you can't deny what they did". I have taken particular offence at what you 'said'.

Your apology in no way mitigates that offence, in fact it magnifies it.

If you want to have a tilt at anything else Australian, How about Ned Kelley?

After all Jerilderie is just down the road.

You know all about chooks, emus & dunnies!

And just another friendly tip

Michael is ALWAYS right

ooRoo

Pat

[michaeldr]

Mat,

No problem

I can thoroughly recommend Tom Curran's book by the way

Pat,

If only, if only.

ahhhhhhhhh

Regards

Michaeld D.R.

[Mat McLachlan]

Pat - Fair enough. Maybe a cup of tea and a good lie down will make you feel better.

Michael - I'll look out for the book.

Cheers,

Mat

[Guest bonza]

Maybe, but it wouldn't cure the problem as I see it.

Like the blue bit [ your signature] at the bottom.

Am wondering how I can put "He who would educate the world must start with himself" on mine.

Might I respectfully draw your attention to the "Aussies of East Lancashire" thread.

The Ned Kelley offer his still open.

Pat

[Mat McLachlan]

Don't think I'll be getting a Christmas card from Pat this year...

[Guest bonza]

Would I be that petty?

Would suggest you don't open it indoors though.

[Auimfo]

Mat,

My grandfather arrived in Australia in 1910 with the rest of his family. Four years later four sons and their father all served in the AIF. No matter where they were born I still consider them Anzacs. Those of them who returned, lived in this country for the remainder of their lives - would you have me believe that they weren't true Australians?

In fact a high proportion of the AIF were born outside Australian shores and considering the relative youth of our country at that point in time it would be a very naive Australian nowadays to be disappointed in this fact. Perhaps it was this broad mix of nationalities and cultures that blended together to form the character we describe as Australian.

I also disagree with your belief that Australians saw all English as 'bungling poms'. This, I feel was basically reserved for the 'brass' who seemingly failed to see the reality of the situation for the men and continued to plan slaughter after slaughter. And even this point doesn't broadly apply to all 'brass'. What Aussie at the time didn't love Birdwood and I'm sure more than one had a passing respect for Plumer. I know for a fact that my Great Uncle (on the other side of the family and was a born and bred Aussie) had the highest respect for the British Regular Army (or what was left of them).

I tend to think you are generalising too much and in doing this you help perpetuate the 'Anzac Myth' which is how our friends from overseas believe we see ourselves.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm a proud Aussie and certainly believe that our contribution and sacrifice in WW1 was proportionally greater than many others however I know the reality and am not swayed by any myth.

Don't sell other Australians short by presuming they're all that naive.

Tim L.

P.S. I'll still send you a card at Xmas

[robbie]

I also disagree with your belief that Australians saw all English as 'bungling poms'. This, I feel was basically reserved for the 'brass' who seemingly failed to see the reality of the situation for the men and continued to plan slaughter after slaughter.

Very true. Many of the Aussies did hold the view that the "top brass" were slow in withdrawing Aussie troops from what the perceived futile slaughter. However, even though I agree in part with this, the AUssies weren't the only troops involved, were they?

Robbie

[Guest bonza]

However, even though I agree in part with this, the AUssies weren't the only troops involved, were they?

I too was confused, Robbie.

Until I got pointed in this direction anyway

"It is a popular myth that Gallipoli was purely an ANZAC affair; in fact not only the rest of the British [including Newfoundlanders], but the French army contingent on Gallipoli also outnumbered the ANZACS."

It's a long long trial, but we're getting close.

Pat

[Mat McLachlan]

Hi all,

Ever wished you could take back something you've said? I've certainly got that feeling now!

Just for the record, let me clarify my position:

1. I have absolutely no problem with Simpson or anyone else not born in Australia joining up and fighting with the Aussies. I consider them all 'Anzacs'. My own family emigrated from Scotland in the late 1800s and I certainly consider them and their descendents (ie: me) Australians.

2. I don't consider all English soldiers (or English Generals for that matter) 'bunglers'.

3. My personal experience is that many Australians who know the story of Simpson (understandably) assume he was Australian.

4. Also in my experience some people consider that to be called an 'English soldier' implies you were less of a soldier than the Australians, and that the English Generals who commanded them were incompetent. Again, not my belief, but one that I have encountered from time to time.

5. In my experience some people (again, not all) who believe points 3 and 4, are surprised when they find out Simpson was English. My hope is that these people reasssess their attitude to English soldiers, and not Simpson!

The fact that my generalisations have caused a few heated responses is a good sign - it suggests that other people haven't had the same experiences as me. Maybe I'm just hanging out with the wrong crowd!

Anyway, I hope this clears up the matter.

Cheers,

Mat

PS: If anyone is looking for a Christmas card for me, I like the ones with a picture of a snowman.

[Mat McLachlan]

Pat,

I normally try and be a good netizen and don't delete previous posts. However, in the interests of preserving the Anzac legacy (and my own safety) I think I'll make an exception this time!

Anyone who has lingering doubts about my patriotism, please rest assured I know all the words to Waltzing Matilda, believe that cold beer is God's nectar and enjoy watching the Poms cop a hiding in the Ashes.

Cheers,

Mat

[Auimfo]

Mat,

[Mat McLachlan]

Thanks Tim. It's nice to know I've still got some friends in the cold, bleak world of the Internet Forum!

Cheers mate.

Mat