Training: how long?

[Muerrisch]

Question first, explanation afterwards.

Given that Initial Training for a regular soldier pre-war was six months, and that the exigencies of war eventually drove that down to 14 weeks, do we have authenticated instances of an even shorter period?

Explanation: I am reading the excellent 'Fighting Nation - Kitchener's Armies' by Smithers, a serious piece of scholarship. He asserts that the Kitchener men were in fact better trained than many men in regular units by 1916, as many in the regular units had done minimal training before posting, mere days in some instances.

Every now and then I come up against an 'unbelievably' short period between enlisting and arrival claimed for an individual.

I think the Pals, with their varied specialisms, may be the forum to put some flesh on the bones of the suspicions. Please, only post cases with more evidence than anecdote and, please, infantry only.

For my part, I will promise to write a report on my conclusions.

[Jonathan Saunders]

David,

In Terry Norman's excellent THE HELL THEY CALLED HIGH WOOD (pp29/30) he states "Every Regular soldier worth his salt and an extra 6d a day, could fire at least 15 rounds a minute at the target before him. Moreover it was not unknown for some infantryman to exceed 25 rounds a minute."

Norman may well be talking of Congreve's time as Commandant at the School of Musketry that ended in 1911 but as we know these rates of fire were still common in 1914. However Norman is critical of the New Army recruits that due to volume (as much as speed) made proper training difficult and were often in capable of firing more than 10 rounds a minute but Norman does make reference to the New Army making up in enthusiasm what they lacked in training.

Not sure if it helps but thought it worth bringing your attention to.

[Neil Burns]

Hi David,

I just want to confirm: this is for BEF troops only?

Thanks,

Neil

[Muerrisch]

Hi David,

I just want to confirm: this is for BEF troops only?

Thanks,

Neil

yes please, BEF and infantry at that .... need to keep it focussed.

[BMoorhouse]

I think that you would do well to try to identify the dates that the battalions were raised and then deployed. In my experience the 'original' Kitchener battalions were mostly raised in September/October 1914, and were thereafter deployed as their divisions were formed and sent abroad. Most would have had at least six months' training - some up to a year.

The real problems that were encountered for the early formations was the lack of equipment and training ammunition, which meant that although the training periods may have been longer than for regular soldiers it was undoubtably of lower quality.

There was also the problem that although there were some 'veteran' soldiers in these units to help the civilians learn military ways, the general standard must have been considerably lower than with regular formations.

I cannot help with individuals that came later - from general reading the training periods varied considerably. Following the March 1918 offensive, government policy reduced the combat age from 19 to 18, releasing a lot of trained soldiers to the front line - eighteen year olds that had been trained and were awaiting their birthday. (What a present!)

Brendon.

[Muerrisch]

BMoorhouse: sorry, I did not make myself clear enough: I am content that the Kitchener battalions had sufficient training [well, the prescribed period, never mind the quality] before they went to BEF [in the main]. The problem area is the soldiers supplying drafts to units already engaged. A draft was typically 100 or so men.

As an example, I know for a fact that the first draft sent from the Depot-cum-3RWF composed of soldiers enlisted after outbreak of war was sent late May 1915 .... no obvious shortage of training there, especially considering the massive early recruiting.

The basic question is if Pte Fred Bloggs, enlisted, say, any time from mid 1915, and NOT sent to a Kitchener unit but as a draft, had his minimum 14 weeks training, or do we know of any verifiable cases where he had just a handful of days?

[Muerrisch]

Please could I bring this to the top? I just know that the information I crave is out there among you experts on the Royal Sussex, Northumberland Fusiliers etc etc.

Please spare me a few crumbs of knowledge.

Did I put people off with the word 'serious' I wonder?

[sandyford]

Sorry LB1418.

Because I do not have easy access to PRO I have only begun to take information from War Diaries about drafts of soldiers to 6th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers TF appearing after the initial embarkation 20th April 1915 and first engagement 26th April 1915.

I have recorded a draft of officers and other ranks appearing in November 1915. Without access to their enlistment dates I can't tell how much training they had had.

Another difficulty is that I don't know whether these men were already enlisted in April 1915 but for some reason did not go overseas with the battalion initially. They would then have had numbers within the extremes of the numbers in the casualty figures for St. Julien and so I would be none the wiser when they started to appear in the casualty listings.

I would like the same information as you but for different reasons.

We began to discuss this in a thread about Battalion Strength.

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...12732&hl=drafts

Kate

[Muerrisch]

Thank you, I revisited the thread ..... clearly it is a problem facing researchers with no easy solution

[sandyford]

But.

I am hoping to be able to find lists of soldiers who have enlisted in the local press and then compare unusual names with them turning up in casualty listings in the War Diary.

A tortuous approach I know, but in the absence of a Battalion History, it may pay dividends.

Kate

[Yorts]

David,

Perhaps the Royal Marine Light Infantry is not quite the sort of example you were looking for, but certain individuals were sent to France in 1914 with the RND after a mere few days training. One officer I recall was sent to France only three days after being emergency commissioned. He had no formal training, but as he could drive and owned a car he proved a valuable addition to a unit which had no standing battalion transport. Needs must as the devil drives (unintentionally appropriate!). A number of the officers appear in Fevyer and Wilson's roll to the 14 star under the title 'Motor Owner Drivers'.

Hope this helps,

Alex.

[doogal]

Have you read about the tunnelling companies described on the main page of this site?

Some had as little as four days training in 1915.

[delta]

In his entry for 28th July 1916, Captain Dunn (The War the Infantry Knew) records:

" The truly disquieting fact about the draft was that a large number had been attested only 6 weeks before they came to us... What was called training amounted to "a lick and a promise", it did not fit the men to take part in any operation. They had only fired five rounds of ball cartridge ; many of the did not

know how to load and unload a rifle or to fix or unfix a bayonet"

The reason given was the number of casualties in the previous weeks and the Govt's need to get men into the line. Less than a month later the Bn were in High Wood!

[Tim Birch]

I can't find the entry but I seem to remember that towards the end of TWTIK Dunn refers to a man in a new draft who didn't know how to load his rifle let alone fire it.

Tim

[tintin1689]

at the opposite extreme men in the Young Soldiers Battalions had training so comprehensive that it included vocational training to fit them for when they left the Army!

A whole section of the Staff Duties Branch of the War Office was devoted to superintending this. It developed from impromptu classes in the Northern Command to meet the demands of recruits who had been apprentices and were worried they would lose their skills.

A great deal of effort was put into providing equipment, text books instructors etc. so the War Office must have been satisfied the strictly military training demands were being fully met in these units.

I would be very interested in how the products of these units were viewed by line battalions. The product of the Young Soldiers battalions of 1939-45 were very fit highly disciplined soldiers.

[Jock Bruce]

I came across a guy today who enlisted in 4th Seaforths TF on 4 Sep 14 and went to France with them on 5 Nov 14.

Jock

[Muerrisch]

Now that is quick indeed. TF, I suppose. I just hope the poor blighter survived.

[Jock Bruce]

David,

he did and was later commissioned in the Sussex Yeomanry - there is a file for him in WO374 which I'll pull at some point just to confirm these dates.

Jock